Alfa Pages Forum Index Alfa Pages
A forum for help with the Alfasud And Alfa 33
 

Scary Brakes!!!

 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Alfa Pages Forum Index -> General
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Paul Lewis
Alfasud


Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Snowdonia, North Wales.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:39 pm    Post subject: Scary Brakes!!! Reply with quote

I was hoping for some advice on how to get the best out of the brakes on a 16 valve 33. I have an M reg 16 valve with the standard rear drums and grooved/vented RED DOT discs at the front with RED DOT Fast road pads. Even with the improved brakes at the front, my car can still be a bit scary!! Today I had to drive over the mountains near my house in Snowdonia up to the coast on a deserted and very winding A road. (The A543 if anyone is interested!!) It is a great road with long straights and sharp and sweeping bends. Anyway to cut straight to the point, as the road was empty I really pushed on in the car and I just think that for a car of the 33's weight and power the brakes are scarily bad!! Maybe I don't have them set up right, but they really are not up to the job if you really want to push the car. I have checked the pads and they seem okay and I recently bled the system and put new fluid in. Can anyone offer any advice?? I was told that it is best that the hook on the rear bias compensator is pushed all the way down to give maximum rear brakes..I haven't done this yet.

Can any of you offer advice??

p.s I know 33's are not famed for their braking ability..but my car seems shocking..is it possible I cooked the fluid??
_________________
Currently own a late 33 16 Valve (M reg) in Silver, with P4 alloys and superspint back box.
I live out in the sticks with not an Alfa specialist for miles around!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
paddy granger
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine are shocking too! Even more shocking, however, is when I step into my mums 147 or my dads 156 afterwards and almost fly though the windscreen Shocked

I don't know about that rear bias setup - you wouldn't want the rear end to lock up Confused

AH Motorsports have some brake kits.

http://www.ahmotorsports.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matt Stolton
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 233
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:27 am    Post subject: Coming Soon Reply with quote

On my P4 project we are really messing around with the brakes.

I had already fitted red dot discs and pads all round, but with the impending power output, I have become a little nervous.

The Answer - Available from Clovertech soon...

Basically we are getting some 280mm vented discs (will fit inside most 15" rims), some brackets for the caliper, and then refurbing/fitting Alfa 75 Brembo ali twin pots!! We are going to try it out on my car, and if all is well, offer it as a complete kit, which should be easy to use, and bolt stright on.

I believe the standard discs are about 230mm diameter, so by adding 50mm diameter, you get a greater leaverage over the axle/tyre, than with a smaller disc. Add to this the stronger caliper to help grip the disc better, and a big improvement in stopping power should be available.

This approach is good enough for M3, who still only use a single pot caliper (a big one admitedly), but use huge discs to give enough brakeing force to stop the 300BHP+ machines!! We are obviosly limited to the inside of the rim's dimension, which limits the disc to about 280-285mm, but if your are reasonably serious about performance, fitting 15" rims is a good start any way.

Still, for those that are interested, the engine is coming together, and it is now all timed up, with new belts and tensioners, although where the block and heads have both been skimmed we have had to mod the tensioner arm to take up the extra slackness in the belts!! It amazing the difference a small amount of surface skim can do to the belts. Sometime this week it will be coupled to the box, and actually make it into the car!!!!!!!!!
_________________
Regards

Matt

Ex Alfa 33 'GTA' (P4 with Knobs On)
Now cruising in a 166 3.2 Ti!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
GaryUK
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul, before spending a penny on the wheel side of the brakes make sure the components that provide the pressure to the callipers/cylinders are sound.

I keep saying this but the handbrake set-up is critical for braking performance on the 33, surprisingly so. Do a test, put the handbrake on a notch or two or three (depends on how far up the handbrake goes) just enough to take any 'slack' from the system without the brakes binding and then test the brakes again. If they are now more positive and effective the handbrake needs adjustment.

If this makes no difference then firstly I'd test the amount of suction the engine is providing to the servo. If it is low investigate the reason and repair or replace (could be the inlet manifold gasket or a blockage in the pipe or clogging of the outlet on the manifold. Don’t know if this could have an effect but have you got a sports air filter this could reduce the suction to the servo. Maybe you’ll need to increase the diameter of the servo pipe outlet on the manifold?).

Then I'd test the one way valve and pipes for leaks then the servo chamber itself(even the smallest leak will screw up the brakes). I’d see if there are any leaks in the vacuum chamber and associated pipe-work by seeing how long the vacuum is the retained in the system after the engine stops running. Then compare this time to someone on this forum who has 'healthy' brakes (if you are talking minutes with your braking system this would say you have a leak). I have no idea how long is 'normal' for a 33 but if you posted a thread asking people I'm sure you would get a response as it would be useful to ALL Sud/Sprint/33 owners to have an indication of the integrity of their own vacuum system.

If this is OK then I would replace the seals in the brake cylinder (inexpensive).

Good luck!!
Back to top
Alfa Nutter
Alfa Arna


Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 7
Location: Sussex ,uk

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings

My Alfas have also had pony brakes,but none more so than my current sportwagon.The last owner put Brembo drilled discs on [little worn now] and OMP fast road pads,and still the brakes are cac.When heavy braking,after a few seconds they feel like wet brakes which zaps my confidence-not good when you are terrorising some ponce in his German so called sports car with a GTI badge on the back.

So i have tried this.I ran some duct pipe,from the front valance just under the fogs.There is a square vent to mount it behind.Then i ran them [one each side] to the discs.Its easily done and does not clash with the wheels when steering as ithought it might.

It has made an improvement on the situation but i soppose the real test will come in the summer when the discs get proper hot.

Also i was told braided hosing helps with pedal feel.

Isnt it a shame that souch a great car was let down by its brakes?
But there are ways and means around this problem.

Good luck mate.
_________________
Sportwagon 16v series 3 with a touch of zender
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GaryUK
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul just had a thought are your pads glazed? Take them out and using some 800grit wet and dry on a flat surface cut off the top layer. Bed them in gently for a few miles, this may improve their efficency.
Back to top
ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 388
Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:03 pm    Post subject: re : poor braking Reply with quote

hi!

if i were you i'd begin with replacement of the flexible hoses that deliver braking fluid to your front and rear brakes.
then a thorough bleed of the system can greatly help, most of the time bleeding of the rear bias valve is forgotten which results in poor pedal feel.
besides, be careful if you fit larger brakes since it can very rapidly result in front wheel lockup (due to lack of weight). be sure to have larger tires fitted first...

regards,
zp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Paul Lewis
Alfasud


Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Snowdonia, North Wales.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:25 pm    Post subject: Handbrake Adjustment. Reply with quote

Hi Gary, Thanks for the tip about checking the handbrake. I tried pulling the handbrake lever on with the car on a slight slope and at three to four notches up the car still rolls (ie the wheels aren't binding). The lever actually pulled up for seven clicks. Anyway I tried driving the car with the handbrake on the third to fourth notch and the brakes and the pedal did feel better and more positive. So the question is...how do I adjust the handbrake?? Do I have to make an adjustment in the rear drums or at the lever itself??

Also I checked the servo pipe for leaks and it looked fine.

Cheers Paul.
_________________
Currently own a late 33 16 Valve (M reg) in Silver, with P4 alloys and superspint back box.
I live out in the sticks with not an Alfa specialist for miles around!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Adjusting the rear drums involves removing the drum and gaining access to the regulator nut which expands and/or contracts the jaws. It is parallel to the piston that operates the jaws and you will need a simple pair of pliers to adjust it. The frustrating part of the story is that most of the times the drum cannot be taken out easily because groove has been created due to braking effect. Personally I had the drums reconditioned and the groove taken away with a milling machine (correct word?) when I replaced the jaws. Now I'm able to remove the drums with no difficulty in order to adlust the nut and eventually the shoe-to-drum clearence.

Hope this helps,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Eddie W
Alfa 33


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 375
Location: new zealand

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gritsop has the way of it. The rear brakes should be self adjusting but it doesn't seem to work well. When wear on the drum leaves a lip on the outside it becomes impossible to adjust to the correct clearance as the lip will not pass over the shoes. Ideally the drum should be machined, but on one of our cars I VERY carefully used a disc grinder to remove the lip and was able to adjust the clearance to give a much better pedal. The bracing bracket also improves the pedal feel. I have also pondered the advantages of a second vacuum takeoff on the left front carb as the fitting is already there with a blank plug. However what gets me is that although I find our brakes generally reasonable, they do seem to vary from time to time so that you never quite know when they will decide to give of their best. Has anyone else ever noticed this or am I getting old and doddery. Also I think someone mentioned the effect of changing to a performance air filter having an effect on the vacuum. Not so, the filter cannot effect it at all.
While I think of it the rear shoe clearance should be adjusted before the handbrake.
Total fluid replacement and hose replacement should also restore some feel to the pedal. The fluid absorbs moisture over a period , reducing the boiling point significantly and the hoses can start to expand under pressure leading to an increase in pedal travel.
Regards Eddioe
_________________
A LITTLE FURTHER A LITTLE FASTER
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GaryUK
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul, if you remove the plastic cover around the handbrake you will see the bolt(s) to adjust the two cables tension just to the rear of the handbrake itself. You will see what I mean, they are easy to adjust. I'd give them a try before stripping the drums down. On some 33's there is a little spring-loaded button to free up stuck mechanisms, it's located on the outside face a few inches below the bleed nipple. Failing that give the drums a good whack with a hammer as this may free up the automatic adjusters if they are stuck.

If you do strip the rear brakes down take digital photographs of the adjuster assembly so you have reference when re-assembling.
Back to top
John Hansen
Alfasud


Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 62
Location: Queensland, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:09 am    Post subject: Rear Brake Adjustment Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

Another solution worth considering is what was done to my rear drums by Pur Sang in Melbourne. They drilled a hole through the drum that lined up with the brake adjuster. So to adjust the brakes, all I have to do is take the wheel off and work the adjuster through the hole. This seems a better solution because my understanding is that if you take off the drums, you should replace the nut holding the drum on.
_________________
John H
'87 Alfa 33 QV
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eddie W
Alfa 33


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 375
Location: new zealand

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John, I like the idea of a hole for external adjustment. Why not in the backing plate as so many cars have? Have just changed hoses and fluid on our S2 1700 and there is some improvement. Why Alfa have two different hoses on the rear (S2) is beyond me. There is no doubt that rear adjustment does make a significant difference to the pedal feel.
Regards Eddie
_________________
A LITTLE FURTHER A LITTLE FASTER
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Hansen
Alfasud


Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 62
Location: Queensland, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:30 am    Post subject: Brakes Reply with quote

Hi Eddie,
I assume that it's easier to do the hole in the drum than in the back. Also, again assuming, the wheel when in place provides the dust protection for the brakes.
_________________
John H
'87 Alfa 33 QV
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guest






PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 6:33 am    Post subject: wheels Reply with quote

hi paul sorry didnt get back to you do you still have 14inch wheels thanks simon i have lost your mobile number
Back to top
Lon
Alfasud


Joined: 28 Mar 2003
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my 16v I have fitted OMP racing discs with Ferodo DS-3000 brake pads ( the rear brake's are still stock standard).

The braking distance is very short, but I need to warm-up the brake's first. They are not realy for normal street use, but I did get pasted the APK ( yearly dutch car check ) with these brake's.

From 100kmph - 0 I need less then 40 meters to stop on wet road, on dry road I haven't tested yet, but I think it can be shorter.. tyres used: Toyo Proxes T1S, with slick's the distance should be even shorter...
_________________
Registro Trentatre: http://www.alfaromeo33.nl

Alfa 33 1.7 S 16v QV '92
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
lesthegringo
Alfasud


Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 7:50 am    Post subject: Modern brakes Reply with quote

All the new cars these days have much larger discs, very often ventilated, and that is quite frankly the reason the brakes are so much better.

I've more or less stopped modding my 16v Sprint now, as it became a victim of law of diminishing returns, but if I was to do anything more, it would be to fit as big a set of discs and suitable calipers as I could. I could also possibly follow one guy's suggestion of fitting the 'Sud inboard brakes as well as the 33 outboard ones - four discs at the front would really de effective.

Les
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Eddie W
Alfa 33


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 375
Location: new zealand

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Matt, these alloy calipers off a 75 are of major interest. More details please, what model are they off,dothey only fit with a larger rotor,etc. etc
Regards Eddie
_________________
A LITTLE FURTHER A LITTLE FASTER
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matt Stolton
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 233
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:32 am    Post subject: Thanks for the interest Reply with quote

The ali calipers are from a G plate 75 2.0 TS. I'm getting some brackets made to space the caliper off from the strut, and going for as big a disc as will fit inside the wheel (they are 15"). This looks to be around 280-285mm, up from the 230mm standards.

I'm not so sure about using the 75 calipers now. The pads are readily available, but fitting kits (the pins and springs that retain the pads) are obsolete. I chased Brembo UK and SPA, but both had no luck. I have managed to get new pistons and pistons seals, but by luck rather than judgement, after a lucky hunt on the internet. However, I'm going to have to reuse dust seals, but they look servicable, and have cleaned up nicely,with no holes or splits.

I'm having to have made the new pins and springs, which is not really going to be very viable as a merchandisble 'kit', as the price is silly. However, because I have gone to so much effort with the calipers already (Painting/servicing etc) I'm kinda forcd into it.

At the end of the day, I'll end up with bigger discs, with light weight ali twin pots, with a brembo badge on (believe it or not but the brembo badge will face the engine, and not out of the wheels!?!?!?! Did brembo not like there calipers being associated with the Alfa 75, very weird..?). However, it would have been easier, and probably cost effective to have gone for a HiSpec lightweight 4 pot.

You live and learn.

Perhaps my Dad's recomendation of buying something germanic isn't quite so stupid after all......

Still, I should be at National Alfa Day, 27th June, hopefully in my car!!
_________________
Regards

Matt

Ex Alfa 33 'GTA' (P4 with Knobs On)
Now cruising in a 166 3.2 Ti!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Eddie W
Alfa 33


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 375
Location: new zealand

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Matt, could you translate G plate into a year for me as we don't have that system out here
Regards Eddie
_________________
A LITTLE FURTHER A LITTLE FASTER
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John H mentioned that nut should be replaced if rear drums are removed. I have found that the nut is usually reuseable at least once or twice if the flange on the nut is peened into the groove in the shaft using a spherical ended punch (I use a 6mm dia tommy bar), rather than bashed down into the groove and split as I have usually seen. The nut is locked well enough to prevent it loosening accidentally, and can be removed with a little extra force on the spanner - not neccessary to "un-peen" it.

Also, by using the nuts on the other side, they will usually tighten up with an undamaged part of the flange lined up with the groove, and can be reused.

I object to having to buy new nuts every time I want to check the brakes, but I do keep a couple of spares in case I can't use the old ones.
_________________
Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matt Stolton
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 233
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 8:48 am    Post subject: For Eddie W Reply with quote

'G' Reg is from Aug '89 to July '90.

If you have one of the parts CDs, then search for number 60719988 or 60719986 (n/s and o/s I guess). Original (1999) Alfa price, around £120 + VAT each!!!
_________________
Regards

Matt

Ex Alfa 33 'GTA' (P4 with Knobs On)
Now cruising in a 166 3.2 Ti!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Alfa Pages Forum Index -> General All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum