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Hydraulic lifter damage

 
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:21 pm    Post subject: Hydraulic lifter damage Reply with quote

Since I found 3 damaged lifters and 1 totally wrecked 2 years ago, followed shortly afterwards by a similar experience by ZeNiTh-PbArM, and lately seeing Brit01 with the same problem, I have been wondering about possible causes.

I had to replace both camshafts, and also replaced all the lifters.

I don't think that finding some damaged lifters, while the rest are almost perfect, can be blamed on poor quality materials or manufacturing faults, nor even directly on old/dirty oil.

My latest conclusion is that the lifters stuck initially, maybe after the car had been standing for a while, or because the oil became dirty and wasn't changed. This creates a clearance between the cam and the lifter, so that the lifter is hammered by the cam instead of being gradually lifted by the cam's initial ramp.

If the lifter doesn't unstick itself the condition will get worse, as besides wear to the top of the lifter, it will gradually be hammered downwards, as it is hollow and not particularly thick. One of my lifters actually had a hole in the centre, and others were definitely concave on the top.

So, in my opinion, if you have noise from the valve gear which doesn't completely disappear, either after a short time, or when the oil is changed (don't try to persuade yourself it's better, if you can hear it, it's bad) it's time to pull the heads and fix the lifters.

Unfortunate, but lifters are a lot cheaper than new camshafts Very Happy
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ZeNiTh-PbArM
Alfa 33


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 388
Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

This is good advice.
However, the lifter are no more available from Alfa.
Some alternate brands are known to supply junk (look at my ajusa tappets which got destroyed in no time)
Some OEMs supply good quality stuff, for example INA, but the right part number for a 8V 33 is out of production and out of stock.
It is possible to find lifters that are the same diameter, and that can fit, for example from a VW Golf 3 and lots of other VAG cars, or from a BMW 318iS E30 and lots of other BMW models.
Interstingly, the BMW one is of the anti-drain type but I doubt this feature works with the lifter installed horizontally.
However, I have yet to try installing these lifters in a 33 engine and see if this really works. I think Brit01 is trying to do that right now with the VW part. If he succeeds, this is good news for everyone, because this part is so widely spread that we'll not run out of lifter anytime soon.

Regards,
zp
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I really pray they work as I spent a fortune on new cams and pump gears etc etc.

they are INA 034 109 309.

If you look at the BGA HL6390 tappets for the alfa 33 8v, they list the same models of cars as for the INA 034 109 309 so that is a good sign.

Still nervous about starting the car up though.

Dimensiones are the same, oil passage same height and width etc.




I put my failures down to a worn oil pump and worn cams. Maybe because new tappets were used on worn cams and destroyed them quickly. It's advisable to change your cams with new tappets unless they are in top notch condition.

Cranks and big end shells were replaced 2 years ago. But I have bought new big end shell bearings ones just as routine standard rebuilding the engine.

New rings and a flex-hone to de-glaze.

Below are pics of the new tappets, also the old one to compare. The new cams in the housing, and the blueprints of the HL6390 BGA ones

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Quote:
Unfortunate, but lifters are a lot cheaper than new camshafts
But often once tappets are badly damaged this results in damage to the lobes also. Then the oil pump as this sucks up the bts of metal that come off.
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RFlower
Alfa 33


Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 432
Location: S of France

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brit01 wrote:


Quote:
Unfortunate, but lifters are a lot cheaper than new camshafts
But often once tappets are badly damaged this results in damage to the lobes also. Then the oil pump as this sucks up the bts of metal that come off.


I agree, but my point was to investigate persistent tappet noise before anything gets damaged
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I agree, but my point was to investigate persistent tappet noise before anything gets damaged


okay gottcha.

I left mine ticking too long I think. Pressure from wifey to use the car in summer! oh next weekend, no next weekend!!

Then it became a sewing machine!!

Soon as you hear persistant tappet noise yes STOP and take the heads off.
For sure I will do that next time even it means a divorce Laughing Laughing Laughing

I really want to swap for mechanical heads/cams and tappets one day with some new fast road cams and high compression pistons.

Long term project (once we have a tin can on wheels for the wife to drive around the shopping!!)
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this interesting thread:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1094732-Sharing-time-Lightened-Lifters!


INA F-46516.72 light weight lifter Mine have this printed on them.

the original part number for a VW ABF engine is 034 109 309 AD

all the 050 lifters are the same ( if made by the same mfg). then it just boils down to country made
and qty of the set. the 050109309J is the oe# for the german ones. the 050109309HBR are the same but the H is for hydrualic instead of the J and the br is for made in brazil, I cant asign the same part number to mutliple items on the website.

the german made ones are here in a set of 16
Clutch Kits, Flywheels, APR VW Performance & Audi Oem Parts Source FourSeasonTuning.com.
the best deal are these made by the same co in their brazilian plant (
i have sold over 300 with no issues for the 16V and VR6)
Clutch Kits, Flywheels, APR VW Performance & Audi Oem Parts Source FourSeasonTuning.com.


These appear to be the same as BGA HL6390 for alfa romeo 33 8v on the model list for these tappets on their site

I might just weigh one of my 034 109 309 tappets.

They wanted 41 USD for each 050 109 309 J tappet here!!!!
034 109 309 = 9 USD each.
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Last edited by Brit01 on Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my old damaged tappets (supposedly OE weighed in at 75 grs) Pretty heavy.

They sent me 1 (OE?) tappet with my new cams.
Very similar to the old tappets with the concave oil hole but not quite the same.

Will upload some photos. Maybe one was a chinese fake! The ones that failed after 2 years! Who knows.

If they were both OE then why the difference in the oil hole?
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well here are some fotos and weights:

sample of 1 OE tappet that was supplied with my new cams on the (bottom photo) left
62grams and a different shape hole.
right damaged ones taken out 75 grams! (OE? I don't know - the hole is different and als weight).

So the OE tappets aren't supposed to be identical??? Also have a 15 gram difference and oil hole shape difference. They have no markings on them.

The new INA (034 109 309) ones shown below left with the straight hole (silver) weigh in at just 50 grams - nice and light for the drivetrain and are German. I have 8 of these installed awaiting trial.
Also stamped with all the coding.

Which ones would you choose?




[url]



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RFlower
Alfa 33


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are those weights with all oil removed? Is it possible that they contain different amounts of oil? Although it would be quite a lot of oil to make 15 grams difference Very Happy
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The old ones have no oil, and the new INA came with oil I think as the packet was full of oil and I squeezed one of them and could see some oil come out (so at 50 grams extremely light - it is the light model - I think without oil they come in at 48 grms).

Yes the oil will only be a few grams (maybe 5 at max) I imagine.

so 75 grms for the old broken tappets is very heavy indeed, maybe that's why they broke, the weren't returning fast enough at high revs and hitting the lobes on their return. Just a guess.

The lighter tappets should move up and down quicker, expecially at higher revs and keep in contact with the lobe better, as long as it's strong enough. Being german I expect they should be good.
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a stupid question:
Are 16v tappets similar to 8v?
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baiones
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 08 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bellamachinna wrote:
Just a stupid question:
Are 16v tappets similar to 8v?

Yes!

( at least comparing side to side... )


( boas!!)
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Baiones


ALFA ROMEO 33 1.5 QV
ALFA ROMEO 33 1.7 QV
ALFA ROMEO 33 s16 QV
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ALFA ROMEO 156 SW "Train Edition" ( it's a JTD... )
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a stupid question.

I believe the 16 tappets are 33mm wide and 8v 35mm. Be careful.

The BGA number for the 33 16v 1990-1994/5 is HL6391 (33 mm wide).

HL6390 for 8v. 35 mm.
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baiones
Alfa Sprint


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brit01 wrote:
Not a stupid question.

I believe the 16 tappets are 33mm wide and 8v 35mm. Be careful.

The BGA number for the 33 16v 1990-1994/5 is HL6391 (33 mm wide).

HL6390 for 8v. 35 mm.

Are you sure?

I'm asking because i have a bag full of old tappets, from 8v & 16v engines, and i put them side to side, and one over the other, and honestly cant see the diference...
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Baiones


ALFA ROMEO 33 1.5 QV
ALFA ROMEO 33 1.7 QV
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ALFA ROMEO Sprint 1.3
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well for engines (what engine do you have?):

AR 30747/30746

BGA Part # HL6391
Hydraulic; Outer Diameter [mm]: 33


BUT for AR 30550/30737/30736

HL6390
35mm[/b]
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alfafan
Alfasud


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baiones has both versions, the 1.7 8V anda the 1.7 16V.
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Brit01
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think Brit01 is trying to do that right now with the VW part. If he succeeds, this is good news for everyone, because this part is so widely spread that we'll not run out of lifter anytime soon.


Now it's a bit of a riddle, after about 400kms been getting intermittent ticking on the right bank again when engine is at it's hottest.

Not so loud but evident which concerns me.

Clearance between tappets and bore was 0.058 mm.

I'm on the third oil change and now with Motul semi 15/50 6100.

The other morning while starting up it sounded like a diesel for about 7 seconds!!

Maybe the HLA (bleed valves open and close at different pressures between different makes of tappets). Something I'd like to find out.

Now I have to decide what to do. I have found a source for OE tappets, (I have one spare also).

A new cam box with tighter clearances is also available at 250 USD.
Something must be done before they damage the new lobes.

So new OE tappets in the current cam boxes that measure 35.020 mm or NOS cam box also??

What do you think guys?
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