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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 771
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: ABS installation Reply with quote

Hi all,

I have been quiet for quite some time (doesnt mean I dont watch in here) - I will present you my new project which is retrofitting ABS to the 33 with parts coming off a 16V car. I had removed all parts, marked everything, took plenty of photos and slowly rebuilding them and fitting the parts to the 33.

Although the 1.4 IE had the drum setup, it appears that during the last period of production ABS was fitted to the 1.4 IE at the German market. Not quite original to the 1.4 IE but I dont think it matters much I guess Wink

Here is the list of parts that are required for the convertion.

- rear axle complete with disks, sensors, metal pipes etc.
- ABS unit complete with wiring and a couple of metal pipes as the routing is different compared to the standard setup
- Halfshafts complete with hubs. CV joint features the inductive teeth and the hub features an extra bracket for the sensor.
- handbrake lever (different setup compared to the standard drum brakes)
- Dashboard wiring (not a big deal) for the instrument panel check light.

For the time being I have restored the halfshafts along with the hubs and next on the list is the rear axle which may take some time to restore.

I will be updating this thread as progress is done but may take quite some time...


Donor car


Rear axle complete with disks and handbrake cables


New rear hubs along with ABS inductive teeth


Halfshafts installation







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1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive

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paulhide
P4


Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 1666
Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. I've never driven a 33 with ABS. Would be interesting to see how much it improve things.
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john 33_16v
16 Valve


Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1474
Location: herts, uk

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting Than, good luck and keep us updated.

John
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, will be interesting to know from you
how '90 ABS systems worked, people say
they were not perfect but still quite usefull

Ps.: have you the possibility to weight the rear axis
(for example one time at left and one time at right)
with disc and compare with the rear axes with drums?
Probably suspended mass are very similar?
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 771
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

As far as I can guess, the ABS system of the 80s is not comparable to todays systems. This specific ABS is actually a cross setup. This means that if one wheel locks then the ABS pump will regulate the locked wheel but also the cross side wheel which may not have locked up. So if one wheel locks then the other one connected to the same hydraulic section of the circuilt will also be regulated. This thing is not so good to happen as we only want to regulate the locked wheel.

The newer ABS units have 2 input lines with 4 output lines, one for each wheel as opposed to the 33 ABS with just two output lines.

For sure the ABS can help you during braking especially on the top of a corner by maintaining the stability of the vehicle

As far as the weight, I can say that the drum setup looks like a little heavier than the disk setup. What adds weight is the ABS pump which is quite heavy something like 5kg.
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AL33NUT
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 210
Location: Woking Surrey

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting. You think the drum set up is heavier than the the disk setup (i.e. without ABS).
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
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Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I have measured the weight of the parts (not including the axle as it is common in both setups) and it appears that the weight of the disk setup is marginally heavier, around 1.5 kg. Weight of 21.5 for the disk setup as opposed to 20kg for the drum setup.

The measurements were taken from the parts catalog which i think is a reliable source of info.
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1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I suspected something similar, one time I readed weigths on E-per 2005,
but on the version I have the weight is not reported for all the stuf,
so I had to guess some, I calculated 0,5 kg (1 kg total) for wheel in favour
(less mass) of drums. I think you have done a more accurate estimate (1,5 kg).

Sometime I was thinking about make 33' suspended mass less heavy
but that's not much realistic if not only for changing rims,
one should rebuild suspensions and braking system with modern
and race materials (for example some modern break caliper
for 240-250mm not vented break disk are lighter and quality
iron could be used in less quantity for other parts). I used
to build recumbent bikes for hobby so I'm a little fixed with weights Rolling Eyes

Still, in that case weight is secondary, ABS and rear disks
are a solid upgrade, really nice job (and very clear photos)!
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
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Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I moved on installing the right side halfshaft and hub. I can now say that the front axle of the 33 is ABS ready Wink

Now the focus is on the rear axle. It has been dismantled and soon to be powdercoated. Calipers rebuilt in next on the list!
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1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33


Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 356
Location: Lisbon-Portugal

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ABS in a 33???

Why bother with that?
My 16v has ABS. (all that were sold in Portugal, had it as standard equipment)
All i can say, is the ABS is a source of headache. The handbrake isnt as efective as the drum setup. Forget about handbrake turns...
The rear brake bias valve is also diferent, and fails lots of time (in 3 years, my car had 3 valves fitted, so it could pass the IPO)

In emergency stops, you can avoid some obstacle in your way, by turning the steering wheel, but if you dont have space/time to do this, you will hit the obstacle harder. ABS will detect lock-up, and will release some pressure from the circuit, which will extend your braking point...

ABS is also very sensitive about shock absorber condition. If your car shocks are past is best, the ABS will trigger easily, and again your bracking point will be extended.

All this, in dry weather. In the rain its worst...
My five cents Wink
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 771
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments. I am aware that the ABS system is quite old and may feature "strange" characteristics.

Thanks for the info regarding the bias valve, I will look into getting an ABS specific if still available as I hadn't noticed it earlier.

The 33 is not driven very often, it is a weekend car not used in everyday life.
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1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33


Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 356
Location: Lisbon-Portugal

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The brake bias valve is made by Bosch. I dont remember correctly, but from my memory it has an extra passage for a aditional brake hose.

Anyway, i admire your determination.
I`ve seen many 33`s fitted with the rear disk conversion, but no one was "crazy" to go all the way and fit the ABS as well.

Oh!!! Almost forgot...
The ABS also has another quirk. At low speed, the rear wheels dont seem to be connected to the ABS
Imagine this:
Road is wet. You are travelling at about 30/40km/h. Press the brake hard.
You feel the pedal pulse, and the front wheels are not locked. However you can fell that the rear is skiding.
If this hapens in a corner, you will have the tail out and the only good thing in this, is the low speed at which it hapens.
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 771
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I had personally removed all parts from the donor car and there was no difference at the bias valve. It featured 2 input and 2 output lines.
I had the bias valve replaces some years ago and you are right, it is made by Bosch.

Here is a photo of the donor car.


Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it, in order to know what I am dealing with - any further info which may be useful, is welcome!
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1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33


Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 356
Location: Lisbon-Portugal

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have 2 S16vQV, both with ABS.

If you need any picture get in touch. I`ll be happy to help you out. Very Happy

As i said, i cant remember correctly. From memory, i know that there is a difference between the bias valve from ABS equipped cars, and the normal cars.
The Eper, also lists 2 "brake compensators":

60564894-ABS
60501737-Normal

All the best
P.Camilo
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: my night deliration numbers Reply with quote

"You feel the pedal pulse, and the front wheels are not locked. However you can fell that the rear is skiding."

Could be because this ABS is not with 4 output lines?
It cannot regulate front and rear wheels in independent way,
so at low speed, for best possible breaking (short distance)
it does his best regulation based only on front wheel speed,
because in emergency break front have almost all weigh
on it (and also should conserve steering possibility).

Say for example front wheel arrive to have 70%
car weigh on it in emergency breaking, and rear 30%,
and say adherence is factor 0,9 with wheel not blocked
and 0,7 with wheel stopped (you know is less if blocked),
so if rear wheels blocks before front, for example when
front are at 80% of maximum break power before stop,
you have to choise between:

- front not stopped but at their best limit, and rear stopped:
breaking/decelerating power is 70x0,9 + 30x0,7

- front and rear not stopped (front at 80% of best possible):
breaking/decelerating power is 70x0,9x80% + 30x0,9

First option is the best breaking power possible on this car hardware.
In practice in that case ABS does the same of an expert driver.
To do better you have to control front and rear in independent way
(4 ways modern ABS) and gain another little 3-6% decelerating power.

Or you have to regulate perfectly the bias valve to have front and
rear stopping together, or rear stopping after, but I think it is not
possible as you cannot have it regulate at is best for every speed
(compensation due to suspension link is not perfect)
(for example, to pass MOT, I always have to stronger a bit the rear
breaks regulation; after I release it because I will have rear blocking
very easily at only 50% of front maximun breaking power).

Ok..I stop..Very Happy ..I will read Gridsop direct opinion when
he will drive the car..having tried the same car with and
without ABS he probably will notice any little difference.

Ps.x Gritsop:
now that you have a rear axe with drum on your garage,
do you see if it is simple to put a shim between axe bar
and drum hubs, where they are connected by 4 bolts,
to enlarge 10 mm sx + 10 mm dx the wheeltrack
without using non original rims with lower ET?
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BigAl
P4


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 3136
Location: U.K Surrey

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will have to get longer bolts, you can also change the camber if the top shim is thinner than the bottom.
The bolts have a square "nut" which is stopped from spinning by a metal tab that folds over it.
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks..so rear wheels should be easy to mod..
Now I need a plan for translate same way also fronts suspension
(something like 1 cm shim between gear box ad cv joint
+ modified suspension arms + modified upper coil plate,
this last one should be complicated,
I know I probably will give up and use lower Et rims,
but in that case steering will be worse).
I'd like to do this only for the car apparence Shocked
because also with 185/60 wheels the wheeltrack
looks a little small for the the car..
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
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Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

Progress has been made since the last post. The rear axle has been sandblasted along with the calipers and powdercoated.

The calipers were painted in yellow color which was an attempt to resemble the original yellow cad plated tone. The axle was painted in regular black.

The parts are ready for installation. I estimate to drop the drums axle in about a month from now. I will need 2 or 3 days to work at my pace as the convertion needs replacing the handbrake lever, handbrake cables, removing some brakes lines front and rear plus adding some wiring. Thus I shouldnt rush in order to minimise any error.












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1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
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john 33_16v
16 Valve


Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1474
Location: herts, uk

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work Smile

Keep the pictures coming with the progress.

John
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PilotS
Alfa Arna


Joined: 19 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice Smile
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 771
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

Just to let you know I have completed the ABS installation on the 33. The phase of installation to the car was quite time consuming as different brake lines needed to be installed on the place of the non-ABS ones and dropping the drums axle.

I have learned two things in here.

1. Rear disks require 14 inch rims which i dont have. So the solution was to grind ~2mm of the caliper rib. I didnt want this happen but Murphys law is always above you.

2. Finishing installation and hitting the road for a test drive yielded something which i didnt want to happen. The ABS warning light turned on and of course ABS disable by the ECU.

Lickily the ABS 2 system features a diagnosis. Connect a lead from a specific connector of the ABS wiring to the ground and the diagnostic mode is activated. It will flash on the dashboard code 12 (as light pulses) letting you know the system is making diagnosis. After code 12 there comes the fault. It was fault number 39 menaing left front sensor faulty. Multimeter on hand and it showed infinite resistance aka shortcircuit. I remove the sensor from the car and without doing anything the sensor comes back to life showing 1160 Ohms. Fitted it to the car. Cleared the ABS ECU from the fault (dont laugh ... it is done by turning the ignition key 20 times), hit the road, hit the brakes and yes the ABS is now in operation.

The ABS pump is slow. New cars ABS function like a machine gun - this one is slow. However it is not as bad as I had estimated. Found a wet road and tested the brakes by placing the left side of the car on the wet - the car brakes straightforward. It "tries" to lose the straight line trajectory but the ABS wont let it.

On speeds less than 30km/h the rear feels like it is skiding. This is kind of an illusion as on greater speeds this feeling is not present. Looks like it is a characteristic of this ABS but for sure the vehicle has greater manouverability.

The brake pedal appears to be a little softer than on non-ABS. I have driven a 33 with rear disk convertion (no ABS) and the pedal feels the same. I guess then it is the rear calipers which give this feel. The softer pedal is not something bad as i had thought in the first moments of driving the 33. It now appears that the brake pedal is more communicative to the driver - on non ABS versions the brake pedal is rock solid fooling you sometimes on the pressure you need to apply. Generally speaking soft or hard brake pedal is something you get used to it after a couple of kms driven.

One of the following days during a check on the rear axle I found out brake fluid seeping on the pipe/hose union. To my surprise the union almost took a full turn ... maybe I failed to bolt it in correctly... who knows. I did a brake bleeding on the calipers and the brake pedal now feels even harder. So I can say that the brake pedal feel is very good.

Finally the advantage of the rear disks is that you can bleed the brakes without removing the wheels!

Regards
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1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
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BigAl
P4


Joined: 06 May 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done grit Smile
I would love to do a rear disk conversion on mine, cant decide which/what way to do it Smile

Without engaging the abs, how does the rear feel? any change to the rear compensator needed?
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bias valve should be adjusted. I am waiting for the disks to bed in and my trusted garage will do the adjustment.
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1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
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BigAl
P4


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok Smile
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, really nice job, and the car seams like new Shocked

Little longer pedal travel I think is related to the fact
now you are moving little more oil when breaking,
cilinders for drum are only 17mm, cilinders for
rear discs i think are about 30-36mm..

What was the conclusion about the two code
versions of the biased valve?

Ps.: before this upgrade, when you already used
vented disks on front, you can still use 13 rims?
I ask because usually on forums they say that
on 33 already vented disk (standard ones 239mm-20mm)
require 14 rims (or may be they are referring only
to the alloy version that are less roomy in the inside?)
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