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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject: Engine not starting. |
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Okay so got everything into place on the P4's engine change. Turn the key and nothing, not even turning over at all. Silence. Dash lights up okay. Battery is fine and starter and ECU are the same as before. Would a faulty flywheel sensor do this
Hope it's not wiring - have double-checked all the obvious. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188 |
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Oggie Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 811 Location: Whitehill
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Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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I would expect the car would turn over without firing if it was a sensor, sounds like a starter motor excitor wiring or starter motor issue. _________________ PHAT 33 |
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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Does the fuel pump work when you turn the ignition on?
Check battery connections. _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Starter was fine before the engine change and I'm using the same loom.
Battery connections are fine as dash lights up.
Wouldn't the starter still turn the engine over even if the fuel pump wasn't working _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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john 33_16v 16 Valve
Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 1406 Location: herts, uk
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Hi Paul,
Engine should turn over regardless of fuel pump and fp relay.
It could be the ignition relay- tucked up behind the t2 tester plug i think.
Try using a jump lead from the battery to the starter solenoid to see if the motor is working- if not then try another jump lead to battery earth too.
Good luck
John _________________ If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue |
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RFlower Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Check any earth connections you might have disturbed when changing the engine (or forgotten to replace ) - especially the strap between the engine and the car body. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers, will check starter motor and fusebox relays tomorrow.
Is there a strap between engine and body? There are the main leads from the starter, attached to the L-shaped err.. attachment. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Just checking the condition of battery and connections(earth, battery to starter, +connection to solenoid). If the fuel pump doesn't buzz when you turn on the battery probably needs charging.
The lights can come on but sometimes if the connection to battery terminals is not perfect the starter won't turn. _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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RFlower Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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paulhide wrote: |
Cheers, will check starter motor and fusebox relays tomorrow.
Is there a strap between engine and body? There are the main leads from the starter, attached to the L-shaped err.. attachment. |
On the car I just looked at (Trofeo) there are two black cables from the battery -ive terminal. One goes to a bolt on the bulkhead forward of the battery, the other goes to the top rear of the engine block. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think the fuel pump is buzzing - I'll double-check tomorrow, but it isn't battery condition as I also used the battery from my white carbed 33 which starts fine.
Yeah, those black cables are fine.
Ignition relay clicks when key is turned.
Will check starter motor tomorrow, but I don't think that's the problem.
Hmmm... annoying. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:55 am Post subject: |
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You never know when a battery might fail. I've changed starter motors, convinced the battery was A1 only to find that, no, the battery's dead.
Worth charging it up overnight anyway just to make sure it's ok.
Also check connections at alternator as the fat cable goes to starter via alternator IIRC. _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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LoneWolf33 Alfa Arna
Joined: 21 Sep 2013 Posts: 22 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Hi Paul,
If you don't hear a click when you turn the ignition key into start
position, then the starter solenoid is probably is not energized,
especially if the dash lights are not fading at all.
In this case the power is not reaching the spade terminal on the starter
solenoid. There might be a broken connection between the ignition
switch and the starter solenoid.
If you hear a click, but the starter doesn't turns over that might be
starter solenoid problem and/or loose connection between the negative
terminal of the battery and the central earthing of the engine block,
and / or loose connection at the high current input of the starter solenoid
(where the charging wire from the alternator is connected).
If the dash lights are fading (almost) completely during the start attempt,
then it could be the battery, otherwise it is most likely a connection problem. |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi thanks,
Battery is fine as it starts my white carbed car fine.
I think you can start the car with alternator disconnected so I don't think that is the problem.
Dash isn't fading at all.
Off to check stuff now. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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LoneWolf33 Alfa Arna
Joined: 21 Sep 2013 Posts: 22 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Yes, the cranking attempts can be performed with the alternator
disconnected, it doesn't affect the operation of the starter.
But personally I'd not recommend to try with the alternator
disconnected, because if the engine fires up, the voltage regulator
may die (high transient voltages [over 70V] will be present at the output
of the unloaded / disconnected alternator). |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hi LoneWolf, yes I understand that. I was just saying that the wire to the alternator wouldn't be the cause of the engine failing to turn over.
Okay so I've put a lead from battery to starter spade and the starter is okay, so that isn't the cause.
When I changed the engine I left the loom/starter motor attached to the car. I don't remember taking the spade connector off the starter motor, but just in case:
I have three spade connectors in that area for a) oil pressure b) starter motor and c) water temp I assume on throttle body:
1. A big black wire
2. A smaller black wire
3. A smaller brown wire
Which should go where/which is the starter exciter wire? _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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LoneWolf33 Alfa Arna
Joined: 21 Sep 2013 Posts: 22 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
It seems the #1 will be the winner.
The oil pressure warning light sender should have a white(ish) wire,
the engine overheating light sender has a thin brown wire. |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Lonewolf, thanks for bearing with me, I've got the engine turning over with wire number two, after replacing the spade connector and some of the wire.
(maybe the big black one is grey under grime - will check tomorrow
However, I still have a problem with the fuel pump. I attached a bulb to the two pump contacts to double check and it doesn't come on with ignition.
I've tried replacing fuel pump and injector relays with spare ones and also another CAS (flywheel/crank sensor)
The pump DOES come on when I join two contacts on the relay base and it does come on when I touch the CAS to metal and pull it away!
Should the pump always be working when ignition is on or just to prime _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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LoneWolf33 Alfa Arna
Joined: 21 Sep 2013 Posts: 22 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad to hear that the starter was finally sorted.
For safety reasons the pump stops soon, when the ECU doesn't gets signal from the crankshaft sensor.
I've heard that some ML4.1 ECUs are not priming the fuel pump when the ignition is turned on.
But you've mentioned the flywheel sensor is triggers the pump for a short time when you pulling it away from a metal surface.
This is good, that's the way how the ECU (and the pump) should react. When the flywheel is turning over the ECU is (should be)
triggered continuously, and it's keeps alive the pump.
Try to move the car slowly in 5th gear with ignition on and check the test light connected to the supply wires of the pump,
or just listen to the pump and the pump relay noise. If the pump starts up then for a few moments then it is works as it should. |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Well I'm having fun. The car fired up with engine very rattly then went down to two cylinders and then died on me and I'm left with a wonderful short when ignition is on. pahh!!
Checked plugs and compression - which are all good, but the short
intermittantly clicks the idle valve, pump relay and indicators and also fires a plug!! How can that happen??
Should the two white wires on the coil go to +ve or -ve? Would that wrongly wired do something like this?
Have run out of time and light to investigate. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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LoneWolf33 Alfa Arna
Joined: 21 Sep 2013 Posts: 22 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
The white wires should be connected to the - terminal, marked with "1" on Bosch coils.
There's a two pole connector near the injector main and fuel pump relays.
Two wires were belonging to this connector a pink and a pink with white stripe.
If the pink wire is shorted to the battery positive (or gets energized somehow
without turning the ignition switch to ON position), the injector main relay,
and the ECU (including the related circuits) will start up except the ignition,
which is supplied separately, through a black-green wire.
So the pink and the black-green must be energized simultaneously, which probably points
to the ignition switch as the source of the problem. |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Lonewolf, thanks so much for this. It gives me something to look for as I was a bit in the dark with stuff like this. I hope to have time to check this out on Wednesday although the weathermen reckon going to be between 0 and 3 degrees and I don't have a heated garage. :-/
(Fancy coming up here and helping BigAl )
Could a faulty crank sensor cause anything like this? _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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BigAl P4
Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey
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LoneWolf33 Alfa Arna
Joined: 21 Sep 2013 Posts: 22 Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Could a faulty crank sensor cause anything like this? |
IMHO no. In case of flywheel sensor failure usually the engine not fires up.
Even if the sensor is faulty than cannot cause the phenomenons (indicators,
relay click, spark) you've mentioned earlier, especially when the ignition is turned off. |
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paulhide P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:18 am Post subject: |
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No short with ignition off. Just with key turned one click ie not engine running, but dash lit up.
Short symptoms disappeared with flywheel sensor disconnected.
I know you love working in cold weather Al. _________________ Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
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lee16v 16 Valve
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 1429 Location: Devon, UK
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Paul.
You probably have double checked the earthing point by the starter and associated cables but I did have an earth strap go on a pug 306 once and it sent the car scatty. |
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