Alfa Pages
A forum for help with the Alfasud And Alfa 33
Welcome
Forums
∇
Main Forum
∇
Alfa Pages Forum Index
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Old discussion list
Alfa 33 Info
∇
Alfa 33 History
Unleaded Fuel
Gearbox Ratios
Fuel Injection
Tuning
Wheel Offsets
ML4.1 Injection
Manuals
Seat Modification
Speakers
Suspension Tuning
Rear Spring Rates
Suspension Overview
Special Tools
Links
∇
Links
Gallery
∇
Events
∇
Science Museum Alfa Show
Auto Italia at Castle Donington
My Hydrauliced Engine
Spring Alfa Day, 2009
Houten 2005
Spring Alfa Day, 2007
Series 1
∇
Three pictures of P4, with a very highly polished
The series 1 Giardinetta of Anthony Stoner.
The series 1 Green Cloverleaf Ian Kanik.
The series 1 33 of from Aus.
The series 1 33 Green Cloverleaf Alex Pape from Me
The Alfa 33 of Steven McNaught of Brisbane, Austra
The Alfa 33 of Andrew Mabbott of New South Wales,
Series 2
∇
A pair of Alfa 33's owned by Tony Corps
The series 2 33 of Jorge Vazquez
The series 2 TD of Llewellyn Oliver in South Afric
The series 2 Sportwagon with the Veloce kit of Hug
The Alfa 33 of Kris.
The Alfa 33 of Michael Petersen of Denmark.
Series 3
∇
A P4 emulating a P2 for the amusement of David Mac
The series 3 16V 33 of Roland Westerberg
A Alfa 33 16V owned by Lars Hoygaard Michaelsen.
The Alfa 33 owned by Emiliano˙Curia.
The Alfa 33 of Paul Devrieze.
Gritsops 1.4IE
Sprint
∇
The Alfa Sprint of Ken McCarthy.
The Alfa Sprint of Keren.
Alfa Pages Forum Index
->
General
Post a reply
Username
Subject
Message body
Emoticons
View more Emoticons
Font colour:
Default
Dark Red
Red
Orange
Brown
Yellow
Green
Olive
Cyan
Blue
Dark Blue
Indigo
Violet
White
Black
Font size:
Tiny
Small
Normal
Large
Huge
Close Tags
[quote="john 33_16v"]I've no idea if Subaru ever bought/sold/ copied boxer technology from Alfa pre or post alfa 33, but they have built and developed boxer engines since at least the mid 1970s. The late 70s/ early 80s 1600cc scooby engines were quite sud-ish with the carb on the top and 4 branch exhaust manifold etc etc By the mid 80s they were upto 1800cc and turbocharged with (i think?) ally blocks... John[/quote]
Options
HTML is
OFF
BBCode
is
ON
Smilies are
ON
Disable BBCode in this post
Disable Smilies in this post
Security Question
What is H20
Suphuric Acid
Water
Hydochloric Acid
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Jump to:
Select a forum
Global 33 Forums
----------------
General
Car Chat
Motorsport, Racing & Trackdays
Boxer Workshop
Boxer Restoration
For Sale & Wanted
Spotted A boxer Alfa
Gallery
General Forums
----------------
Introduce Yourself
Jokes & Funnies
Local Forums
----------------
UK
Mainland Europe
Australia & New Zealand
South America
Topic review
Author
Message
Bobkelso
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:50 pm
Post subject:
I'm a little sad for the 2000cc / 5 crank bearings boxer motor
prototypes that are being destroyed when Fiat closed
the project.. I would be very curious to see them..
(or to have some modern alfa running on boxer,
but I know is no more so important, between 10 years
probably cars will run on more simple electric motor
)
Greek
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:45 pm
Post subject:
I have done the same search as you and indeed is as you say....
Carlo Chiti was the founder and first manager of Autodelta. Befor that he was responsible for Ferrari racing team and boxer turbo engines development and after he left Autodelta he was involved with Dalara and F3 . That was in the 80s and this is when Subaru bought Chiti's company because they wanted to participate in F1. Yes he created an 12boxer engine he although promising , it sisnt perform well on the track. Due to milted funds (and probably because Subaru has aquired the knowledge from Chiti) this cooperation failed and Chiti bought back his company. Couple of moths later Subary presented EJ15 , a 1500 boxer engine model which was the start for the very successful series of models to come.
I havent seen it with my eyes , yet, but i was told that the first models had very similarities with 33 because Subaru had bought some patents from Fiat and they had in scripted in the body somewhere "Licensed by Alfaromeo." (I think in the inside of the windscreen column). Dont forget that the period we are talking is the Dark period where Alfaromeo was in depth and about to be bought from Fiat and when this was done , FIAT was selling all the patents that they though thy didnt need and one of them was boxer engine developments.
Yes , there was a development on a 2.0ltr engine and first samples developed about 140 hp but progress stopped when FIAT got in to things and all 5 samples were destroyed.
Regarding Subaru boxers. Well , the did aquired knowledge from Chiti but as it seems he was smart enoug not to reveal them everything so the engine has problems that Alfaromeo's didnt. This is lubrication at lower part of the block and that the reason that there are lots of incident of broken engines when pushed to the limit for a long period of time. Same think as VW boxer or porche , lubrication issues. Alfaromeo boxer has much better design and very robust comparing to the other boxer.
Bobkelso
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:59 am
Post subject:
Don't know..may be I'm wrong.. what I found was that
first EJ subaru motors, quite different from previous EA series
(EJ are from 1989, starting from EJ15 1500cc 85 bore x 66 stroke 100 hp,
and arriving later to 2500 cc and turbo version) were 'ispired' as an
evolution of the alfa boxer and Ing. Carlo Chiti (who was involved in
many alfa projects, the 33TT motor but also the Alfasud project
of Hruska, this one coming from the vw-Posche boxer experience)
was collaborating with Subaru from '87-88 (and before Alfa was working
on 2000cc boxer but fiat stopped the project); read also that Subaru
bought some projects and patents from alfa-fiat, don't know if is real;
in 89-90 Chiti build also a (F1?) motor 12 cylinders boxer for Subaru
but this one doesnt ended well. The 4-boxer instead was succesfull,
initially with some cranckshaft issue due to a fast realization of the project..
First EJ motors were low as 33 motor and with thing in similar place,
but 5crank supports, all 16 valves, some SOHC some DOCH..
after they evolve more 'vertical' and with things in different place.
This new FA motor seam returned to the low and compact design of '90..
I know there are some books on Ing. Chiti's and other people
of that time history, plenty of details also on the 'adventurous'
Alfasud project (initially was different from Alfanord, but both
ended in fiat group), but I'm to lazy to find these publications
and get the real history with more accuracy
Here some hystori with traduction in English about the 2000 cc
boxer alfa (stopped in 1986) and Ing. Chiti's work:
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-33-sud-and-sprint/253253-some-info-just-for-the-history-of-alfaromeo-and-boxer.html
john 33_16v
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:40 am
Post subject:
I've no idea if Subaru ever bought/sold/ copied boxer technology from Alfa pre or post alfa 33, but they have built and developed boxer engines since at least the mid 1970s.
The late 70s/ early 80s 1600cc scooby engines were quite sud-ish with the carb on the top and 4 branch exhaust manifold etc etc By the mid 80s they were upto 1800cc and turbocharged with (i think?) ally blocks...
John
Bobkelso
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:49 am
Post subject:
The car body is the same of the Toyota version,
but the Subaru version have the boxer motor..
yes motor is more rear positioned, rear traction
Founded a better photo of the motor only:
http://www.gizmag.com/subarus-brz-concept-car-breaks-cover/20358/
Ps.: that Subaru / Toyota car is superb,
still I like the design of 33 body and interiors
Ian M
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:48 am
Post subject:
Alot more plumbing under the bonnet than in a 33 but it does have some similarities.
Its not as far forward as it is in a 33 though.
And did I see the word toyota on it in one of the pics?
Bobkelso
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:41 am
Post subject: Boxer evolution
Here the link to a review of an ultimate evolution of the
boxer motor, done by Subaru, who time ago bought original project
(and one or two ingeners if I remenber well the history)
from alfa when alfa-fiat terminated the boxer production..
Interesting, that time Subaru have prepared a non turbo motor,
so watching the hood photos it reminds me an 'old' 33 hood,
design of aspiration collector, position of alternator and
compressor for conditioner (and same few space like in a 16v 33
And this time motor is been positioned 120 mm lower that
in Impresa model to obtain a better handling,
in practice motor it is now as lower as in a 33
(in Italy we say: they (re)discovered the hot water
)
This is a small revenge, as many people say that
fiat terminated boxer because was not possible
to cope with new euro antipollution directives
without raising all the motor (as in Impresa) to
put catalysers directly under the heads, so this next
sportcar from Subaru prove that this was no a real issue.
They simple wanted produce only the more economics
line-4 motors..I add: bastards!!!!!! sorry, coudn't resist..
It seam to me I read that there was already a 2 litre new
boxer project (that instead was developed by Subaru)
This new Subaru motor have evolutions we could expect
for the 1.7 16 v of the 33, it is compact,
have distribution chains instead of belts (!)
and 4 phase variators (one on each valve shaft,
to have power both low and high rev)..really nice..
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/05/2013-subaru-brz-first-drive-review/
(clicking on the photo galleries they appears other photos of the motor)