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A forum for help with the Alfasud And Alfa 33
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 352
Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:24 am Post subject: Nightmare... |
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Hi all... 
After several months, i finally have time to fix some faults that my 16v has. 
1st-Sometimes when i turn the steering wheel to the left, i hear an very disturbing noise  coming from the front right wheel. The sound seems like the wheel itself is scraping the wheelarch ( RRUUMMMPPTT ). This only happens, when the right wheel is under load (Turning left & braking at same time; Turning left on an donwhill). However there are no signs of wheel scraping on the wheelarch .
2nd-The engine runs BAD  . The engine itself, is fine, but the Motronic is playing with my sanity ...When cold, the engine runs very rough. The idle is "at about" 1000 rpm ("at about", means that sometimes is 900 rpm, sometimes 1100 rpm). The car is jerky if partial throtle is used. Its almost impossible to start moving the car softly. If i try to use 1500 rpm to start moving it, it goes like an old VW bettle, and worse, it starts running on 3 cylinders. To make an "clean" standing start, i have to use 2000/2500 rpms, which isnt always viable (town driving  ). The cold start selenoid, was changed...NOTHING. The plugs were changed-NGK PFR6B (people out there know that this on an 16v, is an real pain and expensive)...NOTHING. The plug leads were changed (with original alfa itens-very expensive)...NOTHING. Checked the intake rubbers for leaks...NOTHING.
This also comes with very loud BANGS and POPS from the exhaust.
What can it be??? 
Your help would be welcome.
Thanks in advance
Jorge Oliveira |
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Ben_nz
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Does the noise from the front right wheel occur only while you are turning the steering wheel, or when you're driving round a corner after the steering wheel has been turned?
I don't know anything about how the fuel injected 33s work, but perhaps your car is running too rich because of a sensor failure? Have you let your local Alfa garage take a look at it?  |
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paulhide
P4
Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 1607
Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Check that the suspension spring isn't rubbing against the inner subframe. I had exactly these symptoms because somebody had put poor secondrate lowered springs on my P4. Does your car have a Catalytic converter? And therefore a lambda probe? Otherwise bangs and pops sound like timing. Check distributor cap and rotor arm.
_________________
Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188 |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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jorge,
consider your self lucky..mine does the same but idles at 700 (which means -+100 the engine stalls all the time)..
i can t keep the rpm stable (even when i am driving) .. Do you the same problem??
I am wondering if it could be the fuel pump that is causing the problem. |
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 352
Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all...
| Quote: |
| Does the noise from the front right wheel occur only while you are turning the steering wheel, or when you're driving round a corner after the steering wheel has been turned? |
The noise comes when im turning round a corner, or manouvering at low speed, but only when the front right wheel is under load (Turning left & braking at same time; Turning left on an donwhill).
| Quote: |
| Check that the suspension spring isn't rubbing against the inner subframe. I had exactly these symptoms because somebody had put poor secondrate lowered springs on my P4. |
My front springs were changed at about 1 year for the IPO (Portuguese MOT). I had the left one broken, and i changed both for original springs from Alfa. My car uses the same springs used by the P4 (Although they have the same lenght used by regular 16v, the coil is slimmer and have more "turns" in the coil-when under load they "drop" the car a lot lower).
Might be this the reason-I´ll take a look...  
| Quote: |
| Does your car have a Catalytic converter? And therefore a lambda probe? Otherwise bangs and pops sound like timing. Check distributor cap and rotor arm. |
No, my car is a full 137 hp 16v (No catalytic converter). Distributor cap, rotor arm-Been there, done that- Nothing.
| Quote: |
| I don't know anything about how the fuel injected 33s work, but perhaps your car is running too rich because of a sensor failure? Have you let your local Alfa garage take a look at it? |
Yes, my car is running rich (Black, thick smoke when accelerating-black plugs). A sensor seems the obvious conclusion, but which one?
The AFM, the TPS, the engine temperature sensor?
I dont intend to go to an alfa garage, because they seem more willing working on newer models  ...When the 33 was sold in Portugal, Alfa was sold seperatly from Fiat/Lancia. Now they are all togheter... 
| Quote: |
i can t keep the rpm stable (even when i am driving) .. Do you the same problem??
I am wondering if it could be the fuel pump that is causing the problem |
The rpm is always going up and down, but between 900/1000/1100 rpm, but only when engine is cold...
And also my fuel pump, is making noise when tank is low on fuel (Seems like a bee---ZZÊÊÊÊ). However i think, that if the pump was the cause, this would happen always...
Thanks in advace
Jorge Oliveira |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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pass on the wheel. unless its a bearing. could be in the early stages of going. easy test..
think of the wheel as a clock face, push the left (9) side in and pul the right (3) side out. then try to do the opposite. (is this making sence)
do it quite fast and the wheel shouldnt moce on the hub.
then try the same text for 12 and 6 (top and bottom).
if there is much play then it could well be the bearing.
as for the injection.
get your injectors cleaned. has the car lost performance?
my p4 (when my brother had it) went sluggish on him and ran like a bag of spanners. turns out that the 14year old fucl tank had rusted from the inside. some of the rust had got up the fuel line and clogged up the filter and the 4 injectors. one of the injectors was about 98% blocked!!!
it was quite a cheap fix. getting the injectors cleaned and the filter replaced and having the whole fuel line flushed didnt cost that much. i didnt pay the bill but i believe it was less than £100.
hope this helps!
L.
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A good workman allways blames his sh*t tools. |
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 352
Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hi again...
Well, seems that the wheel problem, is solved...Tanks Paulhide.
The inner wheelarch, has some marks, exactly were the plastic stoneguard doesnt cover up. However i still cant figure out why this happens. Turning the steering wheel, doesnt make the problem appear...
The spring isnt loaded, and "moves", without touching the wheelarch...
Any ideas????...(Top suspension?? lower arms???)
| Quote: |
get your injectors cleaned. has the car lost performance?
my p4 (when my brother had it) went sluggish on him and ran like a bag of spanners. turns out that the 14year old fucl tank had rusted from the inside. some of the rust had got up the fuel line and clogged up the filter and the 4 injectors. one of the injectors was about 98% blocked!!!
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My car performs very well, but only above 2500 rpm...On slow driving, the car is a pig...Can`t use less than 2000/2500 rpm to start moving...
Its very annoying, especially on city traffic, when car in front ,only moves 5/10 metres, and i try to make clean progress, it starts to hesitate, almost stalling. Or i fry the clutch, or i seem i complete boy racer acellerating the engine (as if i have a open road ahead) to brake hard 5/10 metres later......(and in the process burning a lot of fuel).
Thanks Again |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:14 am Post subject: |
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did you check the dizzy and rotor like apul said? worth a quick look.
L.
_________________
A good workman allways blames his sh*t tools. |
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 352
Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all...
Well, finally solved all my troubles.
As for the suspension trouble, it seems that the previous owner had installed BOGE struts, from an series 2 1.7. The lower part of the strut (the "dish" were the coil sits) is similar to series 3, but the upper part, uses all the parts from the series 2...I had "hibrid" struts, and last year, when chaging the coils, didn´t noticed the diferences...Now changed the shocks and the correct parts for the series 3 and VOILÁ...
The injection was more tricky...I still don´t know what was really causing it...Took the AFM out, dissambled it, cleaned it with contact cleaner spray, did the same on the TPS, and finally put a can of BARDALL injector cleaner on fuel tank. What was really messing up, i don´t know, but it solved my troubles...
Hope this helps some one.... |
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Maze123
Alfasud
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 73
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bellamachinna,
What is a "TPS"..? As you might have read under the topic "Rough running Alfa 33 1.7 8v Cloverleaf Sportwagon" I have the same problem as you had! My best guess so far is a mis-placed timing-belt or maybe a broken/weak oil pump which is unable to supply the inlet lifters at cylinder 1 and 3 with sufficient oil to make them work properly.
Regards Mads
_________________
Alfa 33 1.7 16v '88 QV
http://www.bilgalleri.dk/html/gal_visbil.asp?ID=2498 |
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Admin
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 1223
Location: Stafford, UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
TPS = Throttle position sensor. Used on the injected cars to let the ECU know how far open the throttle is.
All the best
Keith |
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Eddie W
Alfa 33
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 375
Location: new zealand
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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TPS Throttle Position Sensor?
Regards Eddie
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A LITTLE FURTHER A LITTLE FASTER |
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
As far as my car is concerned the throttle position sensor (Jetronic LE 3.2)sits in a sealed assembly which cannot open. All you can do is clean the throttle from the oil fumes and dirt which usually block the way of the throttle itself.
What injection system do you have Bellamachina? It would be interesting to let us know.
Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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Maze123
Alfasud
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 73
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks! I've already checked the TPS...I just didn't know the name of it! So far I've only cleaned it and given it some contact spray, but I'm still suspecting it to be broken or giving the ECU wrong informations.
_________________
Alfa 33 1.7 16v '88 QV
http://www.bilgalleri.dk/html/gal_visbil.asp?ID=2498 |
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 352
Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hi...
| Quote: |
As far as my car is concerned the throttle position sensor (Jetronic LE 3.2)sits in a sealed assembly which cannot open. All you can do is clean the throttle from the oil fumes and dirt which usually block the way of the throttle itself.
What injection system do you have Bellamachina? It would be interesting to let us know |
I use the standard Motronic...In the 16v the Throttle position sensor (TPS), is located in front of the right throttle boddie. (between throttle boddie and radiator). Its basically a switch, that tells the ECU what you are doing with the LOUD PEDAL. Not sure, but i think that on Jetronic and Marelli equipped 33´s, the TPS is located just before the intake plenum, atached to the single butterfly. Its a small black box, with 3 pins. However take care, because it must be correctly sincronized with the butterfly openings...If incorrectly mounted, it will fail to give the ECU the correct readings on the throttle position (This applies to ALL injected cars).
To open it (after disassembly), its no more difficult than openning the AFM "black box"...WITH CARE...
Thank all |
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Maze123
Alfasud
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 73
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Bellamachinna wrote: |
Hi all...
Took the AFM out, dissambled it, cleaned it with contact cleaner spray, did the same on the TPS, and finally put a can of BARDALL injector cleaner on fuel tank. |
Was that all you did??? I've just talked to the guy who helped me with the overhaul/conversion, but he cant seem to find the problem. He only advised me to change the lifters in the right side (the left ones were changed during the overhaul) because they are ticking very loudly. How much did you dissamble the AFM and the TPS? Do you know if the engine is still runnig rich/has a high CO after your little "operation"?
Thanks in advance.
_________________
Alfa 33 1.7 16v '88 QV
http://www.bilgalleri.dk/html/gal_visbil.asp?ID=2498 |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
| Quote: |
| Was that all you did??? I've just talked to the guy who helped me with the overhaul/conversion, but he cant seem to find the problem. He only advised me to change the lifters in the right side (the left ones were changed during the overhaul) because they are ticking very loudly. How much did you dissamble the AFM and the TPS? Do you know if the engine is still runnig rich/has a high CO after your little "operation"? |
That was it...On the AFM, removed the top of the "black box", cleaned the "tracks", beeing very carefull not to damage or bend anything. . The inside was cleaned with contact cleaner spray and a dental brush to remove the oil fumes. Be very carefull on the air filter side, because of the air temperature sensor. This part was cleaned, very gently with a soft cloth.
The TPS was more tricky. I supose that who built that didnt intended it to be open. However i managed to open it and clear it of dirt. To reassemble it, i had to use silicone, to ensure perfect sealing....(also used silicone on the "black box" in the AFM). Remember that when puting it back on the throttle body it must be correctly sincronized with the butterfly openings...If incorrectly mounted, it will fail to give the ECU the correct readings on the throttle position.
The CO level droped...But only on idle...In hard accelaration, i still can see black smoke intoxicating the guy behind me 
On your noisy lifters issue, and before droping loads of cash to get the job done, try to get your throttle bodies openings perfectly sincronized. On a previous ocasion my 16v had the right bank "tlak-tlackig" a bit...
So a mechanic got them sincronized ( I believe that it is a bit like the carburettors sicronization-Vacuum hoses attached to litlle nipples on the throttle bodies). I had the right bank running lean, because the butterfly`s were more closed than the left bank...
Hope this helps |
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 352
Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Sorry... It was me on the previous reply
J.Oliveira |
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ak86351
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| btw, on my problem i changed the ht-leads again and the car is going really fast again! |
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| I should probably change my HT leads sometime soon as well - will they be dried out with a '93 car? |
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
Yes you should change them, you will find out that they are cracking when you squeze them... and when its night you will probably see small sparks around them.
Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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Maze123
Alfasud
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 73
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
After I've cleaned my AFM the problem is solved when engine is warm. When cold it still stalls at low RPM..
I haven't managed to dissamble my TPS yet, but my local Alfa shop will take a look at next week.
Do you think worn HT leads can cause the problem as well??
_________________
Alfa 33 1.7 16v '88 QV
http://www.bilgalleri.dk/html/gal_visbil.asp?ID=2498 |
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 352
Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the HT leads can cause this (as well, as the distributor cap, rotor arm & plugs). However, take a look again at your AFM. Let the car reach its normal operating temperature. Then with a small screwdriver turn the small screw on the AFM "black box", to get the idle a bit higher...This must be done with all electrical acessoires turned OFF and during this operation the radiator fan shouldn´t start working. Hopefully this will solve your stalling troubles...
Does your exhaust make "bangs & pops"??? If so you can have an air leak in the intake system, and this can cause also irregular engine running. If this is the case, dont forget to check all rubber hoses and gaskets on your intake system.
Hope this helps
J.Oliveira |
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Maze123
Alfasud
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 73
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I changed my plugs a few months ago (NGK), but I have thought of getting a new set of HT leads.
The small screw on the AFM - do you mean the one that adjusts the blue resistant inside the AFM? What does that screw/resistant actually adjust..? And what happens if it’s turned clockwise and vice versa..?
Yes, sometimes I do have "bangs and pops", but as you can see my intake system is rather custom-made.. The thing is, that the engine runs in the same way if I take of the air-filter etc., so it breaths directly through the AFM. So I don’t think that could be the reason..If the timing is wrong, I suppose it would cause bangs and pops as well, but does it have any other effect on the engine? I haven’t checked the timing, but sometimes the engine runs for about 1-2 sec after I've turned the ignition of, and according to a friend of mine, that can be caused by wrong timing. But wouldn't a wrong timing effect the engine at all RPM?
Regards,
_________________
Alfa 33 1.7 16v '88 QV
http://www.bilgalleri.dk/html/gal_visbil.asp?ID=2498 |
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Bellamachinna
Alfa 33
Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 352
Location: Lisbon-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
| Quote: |
| The small screw on the AFM - do you mean the one that adjusts the blue resistant inside the AFM? What does that screw/resistant actually adjust..? And what happens if it’s turned clockwise and vice versa..? |
This screw is to control idle speed(Emissions)...Its a bit like a carburettor idle speed screw, but instead of adjusting 2 carburettors mecanically, it adjusts an resistance/impulse that is sended to the ECU. I dont know, exactly what are the directions to turn it to increase/decrease idle speed, but when you start turning it in one way, you will notice that the idle speed will start increasing/decreasing depending on the direction. 
| Quote: |
| Yes, sometimes I do have "bangs and pops", but as you can see my intake system is rather custom-made.. The thing is, that the engine runs in the same way if I take of the air-filter etc., so it breaths directly through the AFM. So I don’t think that could be the reason.. |
The problem is not on the air filter side of the AFM. If your car has an cracked intake hose (the curved one that conneccts the AFM to the intake plenum-"THE 4 LEGED SPYDER"-;One of the rubber gaskets between the "Spyder" and the throtle bodies; One of the gaskets bellow the throtle bodies; The rubber gasket on the cold start selenoid in the "spyder"- I think i covered all  ) your intake will have an aditional air source ...So the AFM will give an wrong information to the ECU, because it will not take in acount that extra air that is bypassing him...
| Quote: |
| If the timing is wrong, I suppose it would cause bangs and pops as well, but does it have any other effect on the engine? I haven’t checked the timing, but sometimes the engine runs for about 1-2 sec after I've turned the ignition of, and according to a friend of mine, that can be caused by wrong timing. But wouldn't a wrong timing effect the engine at all RPM? |
Yes, wrong timing can cause this, and had to wear on the engine...ultimatly it can even cause serious damage to your valve gear and pistons. (As well as running a rich/lean mixture) . If your engine timing is wrong you have a very rough engine (cold & hot), power decrease, "bags & pops" on your exhaust- and on worst cases on your intake.
My advice is to check the timing, soon as you can.. If that, isn´t the source of your troubles, at least you will be assured that the area that can cause more serious damage to the engine is OK
Hope this helps
J.Oliveira |
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