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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I did mine cold, try getting the 16v plugs out with a hot engine


unfortunately a cold engine isn't going to give you the real values.
Never actually inspected a 16v.

Are they that well hidden?
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BigAl
P4


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 3140
Location: U.K Surrey

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the hardest part is getting the HT lead off and on
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tvatavuk
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because of that situation:
Alfa 16v original HT leads had almost inch longer head then usual with detachible lead wire.
Shame that this finger friendly design never lasted longer then 10y.

Replacing sparks every 6months thanks to dirty petrol, short distances and Golden Lodge, on my P4 I developed system that helped me remove HT leads faster.
Make lasso out of finger wide yard long string around HT lead, lower it on mid of HT head and tighten gently. Now holding string in plane with HT lead head with one hand finger(or some other fork like tool) and pulling string above with my other head will pop out any HT lead in jifffy without damaging it.
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo
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mg907
Alfasud


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning dear alfisti,
Last sunday I did the compression test again, following the HE-WOT procedure...
Here are the outcomes:







I suppose I should be happy about that, all cylinders seems to have the same compression ratio,
although the overall results seems just a little low (about 130 psi).

But as stated by the experts absolute values are not so important.

In the meantime I'm still carring on the research of a new set of spark plug wires without success.

As a last resource I'm planning to do them by myself using the copper 7mm spark plug wire easy to find for few euros per
meter

I think it could be a good solution when mounting resistive plugs as NGK BPR7ES are.

I measured their internal resistance and it is about 5K ohm
Lodge 25HL resistance is obviously 0 ohm (i measured it to be sure).

Carbon Wire's resistance is about 10K ohm
Copper wire's resistance is obviously 0 ohm



So i think that ignition system could work well with resistive plugs and copper wires. Am I wrong????

Mario
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paulhide
P4


Joined: 20 Dec 2003
Posts: 1666
Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, the engine block would seem to be good then.
Make sure all earth connections are clean - especially all connectors to L-piece on block by starter motor.
If you are getting a spark to all four plugs then that leaves fuelling. Looking at the plugs you photographed there is obviously a difference one side to the other so I think this may point to a carburettor or tuning?
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 665

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think it could be a good solution when mounting resistive plugs as NGK BPR7ES are.

I measured their internal resistance and it is about 5K ohm
Lodge 25HL resistance is obviously 0 ohm (i measured it to be sure).


NO.

Really you want plugs with the least resistance. These old systems are not designed for modern high resistance plugs, that is why Golden Lodge are recommended.

BUT NGK B7ES have the same characteristics as golden lodge with very low resistance.

Did you say you had an 8V? Sorry haven't got time to go back.

Confused
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paulhide
P4


Joined: 20 Dec 2003
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Location: Oh Beautiful Billingham

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, he has an 8v carb engine in a series 3 shell.
To me it sounds like one side of the engine isn't working as well as the other which is confirmed by the plugs' condition as photographed.
Earthing?
Carbs/tuning?
Fuel line between the carbs?
Blocked filter on the pipe/carb inlet?
Question
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are the timing belts accurately lined up at TDC? 1 tooth either way can make a big difference.

I have to check mine this week and put new belts on this week.
After the cam seal popped out and 1.5 litres of oil poured/sprayed out!!

had to quickly fix it due to taking my son to hospital but I think the left belt was slightly off timing because it felt horrible, vibrating, farting at the back etc. was done in a rush in dim light under stress. Not the best way.

Have some spares so I need to clean all the oil away and accurately put the belts back on. Was running so well the day before.
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mg907
Alfasud


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all again and thank you for your replies.

Yes, my engine is a carb equipped 1.3 8v.
Timing belts are perfectly aligned with the T mark on the flywheel. According to your suggestions my next steps are listed behind...

1)
Mount 4 brand new NGK B7ES spark plug (replacing BPR7ES) as suggested by Brit01. That for two reasons. First BPR7ES are resistive plugs and according with Brit01 advice
they do not fit with 33's Bosch ignition system. In addition BPR7ES are "Projected Insulator Type" plugs and as far as I know that means the spark takes place closer to the piston upper surface than usual and I wonder if it could be dangerous for my boxer's health. As soon as I've BP7ES plugs available I'll post a picture comparing them with BPR7ES in order to show how much the insulator is "projected".

2)
Be eventually able to find a new set of resistive spark plug wires, possibly 'Beru ZEF 801' as suggested by Bobkelso.

3)
Unmount the right (looking from inside the car) carb to check and replace the gasket at its bottom, adding some sealing compound if required.
I suppose there should be some air leaks, because of the color of the plug of #1 and #3 cyls.
I cannot blame anything related with fuel line because the symptoms are similar both with LPG and gasoline.

4
Check the earthing of the engine again as suggested by Paulhide.


To Brit01: Hoping it was nothing serious about your son, I'd like to ask you if you are planning to put the old cogged belts on again, after a thorough cleaning.
It should be better to replace them, shouldn't it?

I'll keep you informed!!!
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 209
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: various Reply with quote

Hi Mario,
Thinking at your motor Very Happy
The compression values (hot engine / cold engine) are quite a rebus for me.
Before I thought that minor faults valves appears when motor is hot and
tends to disappears when cold..I have not enough experience on that.
(Ps. I wrote at mdotgrazianatliberodotit for the info about the tester, not sure was the correct adress)

Ok, if you now are searching to exclude extra air/air leak in the right carb,
what can I think to verify if:

- as you say, the gaskets

- if the balance of carbs are ok ( I know you already tested,
what I mean is that there are 2 different type of regulations,
the screws for minimum opening (effective for vibration at idle)
and the screws for balancing at all rev. one carb to the other
(effective in power response and vibrations when driving but if it
is really out of regulation, small variation doesn't affect too much)
Also verify the play of leverages, the main bar is on bearings
that can be changed if necessary, and also the plastic leverages
can be contracted on the ball joints by twisting iron wire on its
if they are playing too much (there are dents on the plastic
leverages that seam done for this)

- if the 'air' lateral screws of carbs for regulation of the gasoline/air mix
in low/medium rev are all 4 equals (or you already tested?)
(may be this regulation influence indirectly also LPG
at low rev because they give a bypass from the main butterfly way,
because I notice that also the rich-mix lever under the steering wheel
for starting at gasoline worked in giving more rev. also for LPG..)
If you move them (for example screw all in and after out an equal
number of turns) keep annotation of original positions (number of turns) Shocked.

- if bearings of the butterfly' shafts are not leaking air or have play
(I read that after many kms they have to be checked/revised)

- if butterflies are well fixed on the shafts (I know this is paranoia..)

- (you already have done this) control to the integrity of the rubber pipes
that give oil vapor to the butterfly shaft bearings, searching for air leak

Ps.: may be your ideas about resistive spark plugs and custom wires could work,
but you will have not same guarantee of correct working as with original specifications
and you don't know how long custom wires isolation can resist oil vapor and heat..
May be you can do that experimentation after having solved actual trouble,
just to avoid increasing variables!! Very Happy
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Last edited by Bobkelso on Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brit01
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Joined: 24 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
3)
Unmount the right (looking from inside the car) carb to check and replace the gasket at its bottom, adding some sealing compound if required.



I wouldn't put any sealant there. Just make sure both sides are perfectly clean and smooth and put new gaskets torqued up to the right value.

Quote:
To Brit01: Hoping it was nothing serious about your son, I'd like to ask you if you are planning to put the old cogged belts on again, after a thorough cleaning.
It should be better to replace them, shouldn't it?


Thanks man. 2nd degree burn on his 3 fingers from boiling water (21 months old!!). Poor little thing.

Yes planning to change the timing belts hopefully tonight for new ones, even though they only have 5000 kms on them the oil can degrade them to an extent. Not worth the risk for 12 bucks or so.
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi BritO1,
Get your son well soon. Best Wishes.
(and you need an assistant to keep on perfecting your car 'Wink')
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mg907
Alfasud


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all thank to everyone of you for your suggestions!

I was finally able to find a new set of spark plug cables from a local electrical spare parts dealer.
I payed 19 euros for them, quite cheap I suppose, hoping their quality is good and
they will last long. They apparently seem fine and are made by a really serious firm (MTA, www.mta.it, an italian automakers supplier).



As suggested, I bought a new set of NGK B7ES plugs, quite cheap as well. They looks very different from BPR7ES (projected insulator type)

The following pic makes you able to compare the shape of BP7ES, BPR7ES and Lodge 25HL. It's easy to find out how BPR7ES is longer and causes
the spark to take place deeper in the combustion chamber. NGK BP7ES and Lodge 25HL are more similar in their dimension,
even if different in shape (obviously).



I think it could be said that NGK B7ES is definitely the best replacement for Lodges in 8V boxers.

I wonder if using projected insulator type plugs could be possibly dangerous for the engine even if it seems to work perfectly with this kind of plugs.

Anyway I turned to B7ES and BPR7ES will rest in a shelf as well as good old Lodges, .


My boxer works better now (I suppose it is mainly due to the brand new cables) even if it still likes dancing a little when idling. Vibration are
no more present, only the engine noise is a little uneven running on uphills around 3K rpm. But maybe I'm only a little nitpicking.

Anyway I'm going first to check for air leaks and then start to search for a set of vacuum gauges to buy, in order to step into the wonderful world of carburetors' balancing Smile

Mario
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Bobkelso
Alfa Sprint


Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 209
Location: Milan - Italy

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So good results with new cables and spark plugs, very good news Cool
if there are or not other details to check now you can verify better..

Ps.: I'll be happy if you start a discussion about carbs regulation..
Here on the forum I read and learn much about..but a complete
discussion from scratch with the help of the experts of the forum will be
still usefull for me as I think there is no a unique technique to procede.
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