Alfa Pages

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Apart from the valve in the oil filter, what other things can cause it?
_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Oggie · Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject:

Gravity.
_________________
PHAT 33

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

I would like serious answers Smile

To me oil drain back is not normal, something is wrong, oil seeps away from where it should stay and when you start the engine there is no oil until it is pumped back in. What causes this, is my descritpion correct?
_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Bellamachinna · Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:31 am Post subject:

Seriously...

Gravity. Oils drains back to the sump, because is a liquid, and it tends to collect in the most bottom part of the engine after being subjected to the force of gravity.
All engines are subjected to this, and the cold start ups are always the most stressfull moment to an engine.
Thats why the oil filter must be eqquiped with an anti-return valve that prevents the oil filter from draining also.
This way, whe the engine is started there is always a small amout of oil that is pumped immediatly.

The oil is not suposed to "stay" all over the engine. Oil will always drain back.
In Boxers, in TSparks, in TDI`s, In DCI`s...
_________________
All'interno della mia macchina, vi sedete, tenete sopra e CHIUDETE IN SU...

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Never had this problem in any of my other 3 33s, so what is wrong to cause this.
This is not to be expected and not normal, I would like to know the causes.
_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Bobkelso · Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:42 am Post subject:

Hi BigAl,
you mean that you have some anomalous behaviour
from your motor when started so you think there
is too quick oil drain back when stopped? Can you specify?

Because a little (slow) drain back is normal,
after some days stopped my boxer (but also other cars) needs
some (few) seconds to put oil in the heads and silence them.

Usually a bad sample of oil filter (with bad inner valve
or a tired one after some kms) can cause too quick
oil drain..some legends says alfa original filter
for boxers had a very good 'double' anti-drain valve,
not sure if it is real or if is a misunderstanding
with the second valve for over pressure..

Not sure but if the oil filter valve fails the second
'defence' (but less effective) against too much quick
oil drain back should be the oil pump gears??

Bad oil filter valve + oil pump gears with some plays
+ a very thin oil = world champion quick oil drain back? Rolling Eyes

Is it possible?
_________________
Alfa 33

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

I was hoping this would be an easy quick answer lol Smile

, like a hole in the gasket between the front and or rear engine plates by the top oil gallery, allowing oil to seep back inside, or a one way air leak that lets air in but no external leak of oil, worn big ends or main bearings allowing oil to seep away ect ect.

When parked facing uphill, on startup the top end has no oil = rattly
When parked facing downhill, on startup the bottem end has no oil = knocky

Something is wrong.
_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Oggie · Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject:

If you have no choice Al fit an electric oil pump and/or dry sump the car.......................lots of moolar though.
_________________
PHAT 33

Bellamachinna · Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:33 pm Post subject:

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Oil pressure is fine in all areas, I have an oil pressure gauge.
Im using valvoline VR1 Racing 20w50
New OEM oil filter, with oil drain back valve.
Sump has been off when Big end bearings were replaced, oil pickup was tight and strainer is fine.
Pump was new.

Patching the problem is not a fix, need to get to the problem and fix that Smile

_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Bobkelso · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:27 am Post subject:

..uhm..

may be also the anti-drain valve of the hydraulic tappets
are a little tired (so out of calibration),
so they lose oil too quickly when car is stopped..
Here we need the opinion of Brit01 who hardly
struggled with them and win ' Very Happy

'

Anyway:

- Oil 5w50 is thin when cold, so dray back quickly
but also it arrive quickly at the heads and tappets
when starting the engine..
generally it is considered a positive gain (because
is the car is stopped for some time every gradation
of oil drain back, so changing oil probably you can
improve more the start than the stop moment)..

- Oil 20w50 is thick when cold, so probably dray back slowly
but I think also it arrives slowly when you start the car
in the heads and in the hydraulic tappets, so you have time
to heard bad rumors usually masked by the starting motor?
20w50 it seams an oil for racing more than for daily stop and go?

And when you stop engine, for first half an hour
oil is still hot, so probably 5w50 and 20w50 drain back
same way (50 oil type), so maybe next oil change
you can try something like 10w50 ?
(or 5w50 if motor is still quite good and doesn't eat oil),
to see if bad rumors disappears in only 2-3 seconds?
It seams to me Alfa suggested 10/15w40/50
(and may be 5-40/50 were not used/known at the time)

Other possibilities..
gravitational anomalies in you area Shocked

very complicated situation..who you gonna call?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtPRnbSIkjk
_________________
Alfa 33

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

It normally gets used twice a week, but has been used a lot of late and it still does it, as it's winter here soon I was going to use 10w40.
It is a race engine and will eventually be used for track days.
_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Bobkelso · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:50 am Post subject:

I was late and thinking not possibile
get you answer just now! I jumped on chair Very Happy

ok I remember..is a race engine, so 'X'w50 oil,
but it is not available a quality oil
you like but gradation 10-15w-50 ?

Because an oil that at cold is 20
to me doesn't seam give any
advantages also for race use,
and may be give some problem
when starting? I'm I wrong?
_________________
Alfa 33

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

lol

No I ran this oil in my other engine
_________________
x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Bobkelso · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject:

(I corrected my post of last night..was missing a part..
sometimes I'm late at night for work but not always
I'm really awake..)
_________________
Alfa 33