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Alfa Pages A forum for help with the Alfasud And Alfa 33 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:48 am Post subject: Autodelta 156GTA 3.7 |
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Hey guys,
This is a preview of the new Autodelta 156 GTA - me and my colleagues at italiaspeed.com are handling the internet launch. Here are some semi-official pictures which Jano Djelalian took himself, the official press pics will come later in the week. The car pumps out 328 bhp! What do you think?
More info on www.italiaspeed.com
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James Granger Alfa 33
Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 302
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:50 am Post subject: |
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Sorry that was me! Forgot to mention that the V6 has been bored out to 3.7 litres (which you can probably tell regarding the numberplate). |
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Ken McCarthy Alfa Sprint
Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 153 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:56 am Post subject: Autodelta 156 GTA 3.7 |
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James
Car looks good but how many of those horses can you get to the road and keep them there? _________________ Ken McCarthy - 16V Sprint |
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tvatavuk Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Posts: 673 Location: Split, Croatia
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:11 am Post subject: |
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There are Limited Slip Differentials on market, in case you have problem with that. _________________ Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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baiones Alfa Sprint
Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Posts: 130 Location: Portugal
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
but how many of those horses can you get to the road and keep them there? |
Have you seen the BBC Top Gear AUTODELTA 147 3.7 GTA road test ?
They wouldnt believe themselfs too...
It even beat Scoobys & M3s... _________________ Carpe diem!!
Baiones
ALFA ROMEO 33 1.5 QV
ALFA ROMEO 33 1.7 QV
ALFA ROMEO 33 s16 QV
ALFA ROMEO Sprint 1.3
ALFA ROMEO 156 SW "Train Edition" ( it's a JTD... ) |
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James Granger Alfa 33
Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 302
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Car will come with a limited slip dif, with about 30% lock. Will handle like a dream! Has a Ferrari throttle body too! |
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Matt Stolton Alfa Sprint
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 233 Location: London
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:59 am Post subject: I'm not impressed (I'd still have one though) |
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Jano may have finally lost it. He is using american style 'tuning by capacity' rather than european clever tuning to get results.
The standard 3.0 and 3.2 V6 are both very reliable engines, with cams and heads that are very conservative. Even the GTA lump has only got 235ish degree cams, which are very very mild. All Jano had to do was play with the head, put some heat in the cams, enlarge the odd valve, and 300+bhp was there for the taking without overboring the block. Just throttle bodies, as sold by AHM, would give 20-30 BHP, coupled with a good plenum, as used to great effect on the M3s.
Stangely, the current V6 are readlined very prematurely, at around 6800. With increased flow through the heads and a remap, the bottom end is good for 8K RPM in standard fettle, and it doesn't take much to stregthen it to spin safely passed that if you wanted. Imagine what power you could get out of the engine if it span and breathed (i.e through good headwork) properly to 8K!!! Easily 350BHP.
Whilst I like that Jano is giving power to the GTA, and hopefully publicity for him and Alfa, I think he has gone about all wrong. The standard V6 is so soft, there is huge scope for improvements without having to resort to capacity changes. Even on lairy cams, modern ECU and mapping can make it controllable and driveable around town, and then a whole lot of fun on the open road.
How thin must the (very) wet liners be? That can't have improved reliabilty.
Don't get me wrong, if money was no object, I'd have one, but for the same money, I'd get a GT GTA, and get the heads done, as you would normally, and as I have done to my P4. _________________ Regards
Matt
Ex Alfa 33 'GTA' (P4 with Knobs On)
Now cruising in a 166 3.2 Ti!! |
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paddy granger Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 248
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure of the exact engine modifications that have been carried out on the 156 3.7, but do have some information for the 147 3.7. I assume the engine is very similar if not identical.
Bore x Stroke: 101.0 x 78.0 mm (vs 93.0 x 78.0 standard)
Max Power: 328 bhp @ 7300 rpm (vs 250 @ 6200 rpm standard)
Peak Torque: 260 lb ft @ 4700 rpm (vs 221 lb ft @ 4800 rpm standard)
The engine does rev up to about 8,000 rpm, but since only the bore (with forged pistons) has been enlarged, there isn't much up there. Indeed, the peak torque is now at slightly lower rpm.
It does have revised gas flowed cylinder heads, new steel billet camshafts, re-mapped electronics, enlarged (Ferrari inspired) throttle, and a lightened and balanced engine. The increase in bore is to the limits, but I am sure that the liners are stronger. Reminds me of the Rover K series engine, which has very narrow walls.
The engine does come with a warranty - 12,000 miles or 12 months, but it has to be fitted at Autodelta.
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Matt Stolton Alfa Sprint
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 233 Location: London
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:58 am Post subject: By my calculations |
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If your bore and stroke figures are correct, he has removed 4mm of material from the liners, all round!!!!! From memory, looking inside a standard 3.0 V6, the liner walls were only 10mm thick to start with, so shaving them down to 6mm thick has got to be a problem waiting to go wrong.
Also what is the point of rebuilding the bottom end so its spin to 8K, if he has got the engine to naturally run out of puff before. Might as well of tuned a diesel. Torque is great, but in a front wheel drive car it will bite you on the arse, with torque steer and it braking traction. Top end power, as bikes develop, would have been a logical path to follow, as the v6 is inherently torquey enough for around town day to day stuff.
I still think the overbore to 3.7 was unnecessary, as 328BHP was available from cams, heads and induction/exhaust, and getting the thing to spin (with a head that can supply lots of air) to 8K.
It is all very wonderful having a Ferrari 'inspired' throttle, but throttle bodies is where its at. Just ask a modern M3 owner, or Garinder in his 145 V6. Mr G has 250BHP (i think at the wheels, but don't quote me on that), and all he has really done is throttle bodies, CDA filter with a clever plenum to feed the throttle bodies, custom stainless exhaust and a remap. Hasn't even opened the heads for cams, valves or a grind/flow, and he has more power than the 3.2 GTA, not to mention some stupid amount of torque he was talking about.
I just think Jano at Autodelta has missed the opportunity to cleverly get power out of the Alfa V6. I'm sure he'll sell bucket loads of them, and at £15-20K a time, plus the cost of a new GTA, he'll continue to be a rich man, perhps the only rich Alfa mechanic in the world!!!! He has just used lots of blink terms, so that owners can show off down the pub. " Forged pistons, billet crank, Ferrari (inspired) throttle, etc "
One last bit of maths.
3.2 GTA has 78 BHP per litre.
3.7 GTA has 88 bhp per litre.
To put that in context:
1.7 16V has (standard 137BHP) 80.5 BHP per litre
My P4 has (expected 180bhp) 105 BHP per litre
Given all the other mods he has done, why isn't he nearer 100 BHP/litre. That would be impressive. _________________ Regards
Matt
Ex Alfa 33 'GTA' (P4 with Knobs On)
Now cruising in a 166 3.2 Ti!! |
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raj Guest
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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matt this car complys with euro 3 emmisions,all the saftey systems still work and also comes with warranty.Not an easy task to acheive on a high revving engine running throttle bodies.Increasing cc is cheaper than building a screamer and more reliable.Two ways to the same goal. |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Just a few things to clarify on this topic.
1 The liners have not been machined out, but the block has, to accept bigger custom liners for the 101 pistons. The only problem this creates is with the cooling aspect, the water cant flow effectivly around the liners as they are close to the block.
2 My engine has a little more than just the throttle bodies, the 292 degree cams, 11.8:1 compression, balanced bottom end all help to produce the 270ish brake i've been quoted. Just shows how well the standard head flows!
3 The throttle bodies are not even starting to be productive yet, the lack of flowing of the head has meant the head gives up flowing way before the bodies do. so there is definatley more to come, expect a real 300BHP.
4 Big pistons in relation to stroke, or oversquare engines for the engineers out there will always want to produce power over torque, and produce power up in the rev range, in effect an oversquare engine is a screamer, akin to motorbike engine engineering.
Which is perfect for front wheel drive, because loads of torque low down isnt really gonna help(relative to the car in question).
Hope i have not offended anyone, i didnt set out to.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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MATT is that Raj, our Raj stratford? |
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Matt Stolton Alfa Sprint
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 233 Location: London
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:21 pm Post subject: Who do you think... |
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Raj a la strtford i believe....
How does the M3, or the new M5 meet emmisions then? New M5 is over 100 BHP per litre, and meets and exceeds the Euro 2004 limits.
My point is that I think the 3.7GTA engine is clever, but there are more refined methods of getting power out of the engine, without resorting to Yank style capacity mods. Alfa have never really gone for capacity over clever tuning, so why start?
Anyway, I'm into my Electromagnetic coupling currently, and am getting oil over Lloyds keyboard, so I'd better get back to work, before he sees his desk.... _________________ Regards
Matt
Ex Alfa 33 'GTA' (P4 with Knobs On)
Now cruising in a 166 3.2 Ti!! |
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paddy granger Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 248
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:57 am Post subject: |
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paddy granger wrote: |
The engine does rev up to about 8,000 rpm, but since only the bore (with forged pistons) has been enlarged, there isn't much up there. Indeed, the peak torque is now at slightly lower rpm.
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I am quoting myself here as I made a foolish mistake! Ofcourse, the bigger the bore in relation to the stroke, the higher the power at high revs. What I wanted to say is that the crusing speed of the engine becomes closer to its maximum speed, like on the VW boxer engine.
Autodelta are confident that the engine is strong by the way. They have years of experience in this field. |
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Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Oh ok, easy Raj long time no hear.
All i can say to you MATT is VANOS, dual VANOS. |
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Matt Stolton Alfa Sprint
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 233 Location: London
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:33 pm Post subject: Mr G |
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Mr G, would you please have the decency to sign in
Its confusing the living bejesus out of me and I know you. Everyone else must be wondering what the hell is going on.
I'll give you Vanos.....try nitrous.... _________________ Regards
Matt
Ex Alfa 33 'GTA' (P4 with Knobs On)
Now cruising in a 166 3.2 Ti!! |
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paddy granger Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003 Posts: 248
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g Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Now we are cooking with GAS!! |
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Mixsynth Alfa Sprint
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 165 Location: Peterborough UK
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Man, this car patently ROCKS...
...but the 'disable right/middle mouse button click' on the italiaspeed.com site definitely SUCKS. _________________ Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations |
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Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Mixsynth wrote: |
Man, this car patently ROCKS...
...but the 'disable right/middle mouse button click' on the italiaspeed.com site definitely SUCKS. |
It is a bandwidth problem fix. Before people were simply copying and pasting image URL's into forums, resulting in insane bandwidth usage for italiaspeed. And as you know, bandwidth = dosh. |
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Mixsynth Alfa Sprint
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 165 Location: Peterborough UK
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Anonymous wrote: |
Before people were simply copying and pasting image URL's into forums |
(OT alert...)
And they still can. All they have to do is select the image and press the little 'context menu' button to the right of the space bar. Or they can go 'View Source' and find the URL in there. Don't forget that users of Firefox and Opera still get the context menu despite the popup box. Many people are disabling Javascript altogether now. So disabling mouse buttons just gets in the way of those who want to use middle-button autoscroll, for example, or those who like to use the context menu to click 'back' or 'add to favorites' (something you want them to be doing?).
Why not just watermark the images with your site URL? That's a tried and tested method of putting off image linkers. Or periodically move your images around different folders. _________________ Hugh B
'98 145 QV
'89 33 1.7 16V Veloce SportWagon (in hibernation)
16V conversion pics/videos - now updated with extra pictures and explanations |
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Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Mixsynth wrote: |
Anonymous wrote: |
Before people were simply copying and pasting image URL's into forums |
(OT alert...)
And they still can. All they have to do is select the image and press the little 'context menu' button to the right of the space bar. Or they can go 'View Source' and find the URL in there. Don't forget that users of Firefox and Opera still get the context menu despite the popup box. Many people are disabling Javascript altogether now. So disabling mouse buttons just gets in the way of those who want to use middle-button autoscroll, for example, or those who like to use the context menu to click 'back' or 'add to favorites' (something you want them to be doing?).
Why not just watermark the images with your site URL? That's a tried and tested method of putting off image linkers. Or periodically move your images around different folders. |
Give it a go. Should be secure, as it uses ht access to prevent external linking. So far the problem has been fixed. |
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alfaqv33 Alfasud
Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 44
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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hey matt stolton,
you said that you have 180hp (expected) with your P4.
Do you have a dyno test, or do you gamble?
What have you changed on your engine? |
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Guest
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:27 am Post subject: You read correctly... |
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I am indeed expecting 180bhp from my road going P4 project.
The main thing was we (Lloyd at clovertechuk.com) found an engine with some lairy cams and chip (we believe it to be an Autodelta set).
The engine then got sent away for some serious flowing/porting, along with 3mm enlargement of the inlet valves, and 1mm enlargement of the exhaust valves. Coupled with the revised inlet (CDA, 145 16V plenum, which has been flowed, and intake between the inner and outer wing) and a full custom stainless exhaust, higher fuel pressure regulator and pump, fully balanced/lightened crank, pistons, rods, flywheel clutch, etc.
The original engine had 160bhp(20-25 up on standard), with only the chip and cams, so 180 is feasible with the extra head work and other mods. I expect to map/rolling road the engine soon, within the next six weeks or so, and I will be able to post the before and after power run plots, as soon as.
The good news is that it still idles perfectly and passes MOT emmisions, and thanks to some clever messing around, mostly with the inlet length and inlet tract shape, is still very torquey.
Curently the chip cuts at 7500 rpm, but the bottom end and stuff is good for at least 8K, which will be raised with the remap. It can definetly breath passed 7500, as it currently wants to go higher, but feels a little lean, which is worrying me regarding holing a piston. Once the map is done, 4000 RPM and above is going to be vicious, whilst it will maintain normality and torque for normal driving below. With normal injectors, but using higher pressure, you can get enough flow for more than 8000 rpm, but maintain the good pattern from the injector nossle, keeping efficiency in the burn.
Obviously, I have upgraded handling with eibach springs, and I managed to source a 'rocking horse dropping rare' eibach front anti roll bar. I have also souped up the brakes, red dot discs and pads at the rear, but alfa 75 twin pot brembos at the front on 285mm vented/grooved discs, on special spacer brackets to get the caliper to stand off from the strut. These only use standard red dot pads, which mean they work from cold, but the extra disc speed, with increased leverage on the wheel through the bigger disc, and the twin rather than single pot caliper do make the car stop radically better than standard. Typically dropping from post very illegal road speeds to slow down for cameras is a very quick and painless process. So far I haven't suffered from fade either, and I put that down to the incresed speed of the disc past the pad, along with the higher volume of metal, with very nicely designed vanes in the disc.
I have even managed to lock the front wheels at 100mph, through excessive right foot, even with Yoko A539 195/45 R15 rubber. The front really dives under braking, the force is that great, even with the progressive springs, so maybe shocks need replacing too.
I will post soon with more info, but I'm in New York for a little while, so the car is at Lloyd's, having the strut top bearings changed, to (hopefully) cure a handling anomally, and fit the Electromagnetic coupling, which i rebuilt before I left. |
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Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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i thought the throttle bodies were too small to acheive 180 bhp,also theres a rumour going about that you have 2 different sized inlet valves in the same combustion chamber.Is this true or gossisp? |
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