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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Hey guys, I would like some help finding out if a spare axle is straight, as in correctly aligned and correct toe, before I go about swapping mine which is toeing out by 3 degrees and causes over steer in both directions.
I know there are no adjustments and have toyed with the idea of using ezshims on mine, but I don't know if my axle would then be correctly aligned and would prefer a straight one.
Hope that makes sense if not ask away.
Thanks.
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x2 33 16v
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Oggie · Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject:

Al , wouldn't a tyre shop be able to tell you your alignment?.
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PHAT 33

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

They have, its out by 3 degrees Crying or Very sad

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x2 33 16v
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eagle3 · Alfa 33 Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France

To get the correct alignment you need to put 75kg on each front seat, 75kg on the rear bench and 50kg in the boot.

Correct rear toe is 0 + or - 25'
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Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994

paulhide · Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:30 am Post subject:

In my manual it has that reading ( 0 + or - 25' ) only for the turbo diesel.
All others are given as:
Toe IN -20' + or - 10'
(so is this -ve figure toe IN or toe OUT or are all toe in figures given as a -ve ???)

Camber is 0 + or - 25'
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Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188

paulhide · Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject:

Apologies Eagle3, correct toe for SERIES 3 cars IS 0 + or - 25'
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Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Ok, Paul H and I did an axle swap today, thanks Paul, when I get a chance I will get some gauges on it or take it round my favourite Asda car park in the wet, it always used to over steer.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Well it still over steers, back end came out going round a round a bout the other day in the wet.
The car looks straight when on a ramp, there are no signs of chassis damage and 2 days ago it had its very first bit of welding done to a rear jacking point for the M.O.T.
I have tried different wheels, which have different tyres on them, different shocks and springs, replaced all trailing arms and panhard arm, none were out of shape and the bolts were straight, replaced all bushed with powerfles ones.
I haven’t had a chance to get this rear axle on gauges yet but I have heard that they are very easy to bend and I am hoping that it is also not straight.
Any one got any ideas??
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x2 33 16v
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Good news, i had the tracking done for the front and checked the rear afterwards and the new rear axle is near enough parallel but the axle is over to one side due to being lowered.
Could it be parallel but pointing off to one direction?

I was thinking of making an adjustable panhard arm.
This is so weird as i have lowered all 4 of my 33's and never had to do anything to the panhard arm.
Does anyone know if the panhard arm is thick enough to cut in half, cut a section out of it, make a thread in it and fit an adjuster like whats in the steering arm? If so do you know what internal diameter it is ect ect
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x2 33 16v
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ZeNiTh-PbArM · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject:

Al, before you tinker with the suspension, what's your tire pressure, cold, front and rear? What is the make, model, and wear level of your tires, front and rear?
regards,
zp

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

hey zenith,
I am currently running 195 50 15's new Goodyear eagle f1 gsd3's all round, I have them set to 35 front 32 rear but have tried at 28 front and 28 rear as well.

The previous owner had this problem when it was all standard, he thought it was normal for a 33, he then put 16" Momo arrow wheels from a Fiat Punto GT and still got it.

I have changed all rear trailing arms and panhard arm, with Powerflex bushes, tried 15" tsw evo wheels off a 155 narrow body with 2 types of tyres on them. I have also swapped out the oem shocks and springs for Koni top adjustable shocks and Eibach springs and it still happens.
The old axle was toeing out by 3mm or degrees but this one is near enough parallel but I don’t know if the wheels are pointing forward or to the left or to the right and it still does it.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

Admin · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject:

ZeNiTh-PbArM · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject:

Hi, rear tire pressure is high indeed, i use 26 psi / 1.8bar front and rear as recommended in the manual for everyday driving, 29psi / 2.0bar for highway (with 165/70/13 tires).
Besides, oversteer is most likely due to incorrect toe at the front axle, too open and it'll understeer, too closed and it'll oversteer like hell. If the car has been lowered it has negative camber due to the front strut design and under negative camber, toe adjustment is difficult and handling tricky as the contact surface between tire and pavement is reduced and its geometry changes under cornering effort. If you do not want to revert to normal ride height you might have to modify front struts to get front camber within specs, but this mod is quite difficult (change position of the four strut lower bolts).

regards,
zp

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

The car used to do this when it was all standard.
I had the front tracking done with 4 wheel alignment, “not laser” so the fronts are equal from the readings from the rear axle. With it set up parallel the steering wheel is slightly off to the left and it pulls to the left. I had it re done, still parallel and the steering wheel is near enough straight but it still pulls slightly to the left, which might be due to the camber on the road as sometimes it doesn’t pull.
I can’t remember if the car used to pull to the left when I got it but I have changed the left tracking arm, it was not the exact same as the old one.
I took it for a blast down some back lanes and it feels very squirmy under braking and with quick cornering I am sure it would still oversteer in the wet.
I have tried with lower tyre pressure, different wheels and tyres but I prefer a stiffer tyre wall, as in no tyre roll.
I have had the exact same setup on my previous red 16v and had no problems what so ever, it handled lovely. I have transplanted what was on the red car to what is on my silver 16v now, to eliminate the problem from when I first bought the silver 16v. I have changed the complete front as well, cross member, trailing arms, the lot, I cant remember if i changed the shocks and top mounts. That left the rear axle, which I have changed, the only thing left is the actual car, but it doesn’t look bent underneath???
Help, this is driving me mad, pun intended.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

Good news, I think, I took it round to my favourite Asda car park, it was wet but not soaking and hooned it in to the car park and turned in quick, guess what, no over steer, yeah!
I would like to try this in the soaking wet to make sure.
I think the previous owner had the tracking done incorrectly and had a bent rear axle. I have had the front tracking done since I have owned it but it was not done using the rear as a reference and it still over steered with a new rear axle. Now I have changed the rear axle and had the front tracking done so that it reads the same on the rear all is good I hope.
I’m thinking I should still do an adjustable panhard arm, to get the rear axle in the middle of the car as the inside rear left tyre is slightly rubbing on the trailing arm when cornering hard on right turns.
Is the correct way to get the panhard arm length as follows?
Remove the panhard arm, let the car sit naturally, measure the length where the panhard arm would be "middle of holes" and match this length with the panhard arm "middle of holes"
Or should the front be made parallel with no toe in or out on both sides and then adjust the rear until it is central?
The front is set to toe in 4 on one side and toe out 4 on the other side, so it’s parallel and reads 2 on both rear axle gauges but if the rear is off to one side, wont this put it all out?
Any tips as I have no idea about all this?
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x2 33 16v
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bobbber · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:45 am Post subject:

So YOU'RE that moron in Asda! Laughing

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Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2990 Location: U.K Surrey

lol, yup, that was me, funnny thing is that it is right next to a police station and i was thinking last night, what a police officer would say. Well you see officer.....
It will be nice to be able to drive my 33 like it should and not worry about the back end comming out.
I wish i knew this when i first bought it, ive been driving like an old man ever since i bought it.
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x2 33 16v
pictures http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5203