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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: Newbie challenge - removing heads to inspect tappets |
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I believe I need to plan to remove and inspect the hydraulic tappets on my 33 8v series 2 1.7
The last month or 2 the ticking noise has been developing (when fully warmed up, not cold!!)
It's had regular oil changes with good quality stuff.
It was supposedly rebuilt 15,000kms ago - details from mechanic very sketchy
First 2 years it's been running so good.
Still runs good but it gradually sounding more and more like a knackered sewing machine
Never removed the heads before so a learning curve for me.
Found this bargain kit:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ALFA-ROMEO-33-1-7-8V-HEAD-GASKET-SET-/110130930074?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19a450a19a
Dissembling looks not too complicated but my knowledge about the hydraulic tappets is very little. This is where I will need help.
Why are they ticking? negative clearance? too much clearance?
Pre-loading? what is this and is it necessary.
Will I need new tappets or just a cleaning and readjustment to zero clearance? _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Just been informed by another alfista that if the tappets are louder when hot then they are not holding their pressure.
Now they were making this noise with 15W/50 Motul syn. and also I just changed to 5W/40 syn for winter.
Maybe it doesn't like synthetic oil or a thicker oil is required.
Maybe a pump issue? no warning lights though. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Newbie challenge - removing heads to inspect tappets |
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Brit01 wrote: |
Why are they ticking? negative clearance? too much clearance?
Pre-loading? what is this and is it necessary.
Will I need new tappets or just a cleaning and readjustment to zero clearance? |
Ticking is caused by too much clearance. Reasons: Tappet assembly jammed in closed position; non return valve leaking; in the case of my Imola - holes and grooves in the tops of some tappets due to extreme wear from cams.
Don't know how pre-loading can apply to tappets. I installed new ones straight fom the box they came in. They rattled very slightly on first start-up before they were filled up by the oil pressure system.
You may be able to service any tappets which have stuck n/r valves, provided the tops show no wear or damage. Also check the sides of tappets and bores they sit in for wear.
There is no adjustment. Hydraulic tappets are self-adjusting. That's what they are for ![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Rflower.
Had the mechanic listen to it carefully today, he said it was just a very slight ticking. Nothing to worry about yet if the oil pressure is ok and lubricating the engine well, but if the tappet noise gets worse then I'll have to work on them.
Going to check the oil pressure first to eliminate that possibilty.
If the pressure is a bit low maybe they are losing some pressure when the engine gets hot. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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De nada!
If the "ticking" is really slight, then ignore it. If it gets at all worse, do something before you find yourself shopping for replacement camshafts like me !
Manufacturers stopped fitting oil pressure gauges because they worried owners, as the pressure drops considerably from cold to hot, and people don't seem to know how to interpret anything these days - they want detailed "instructions" - in black and white. But it doesn't work like that.
Many years ago, in Australia, Holden had a problem with owners complaining that the oil pressure idiot light was coming on when idling at traffic ligths, etc. Holden's solution? - reduce the sender switch value from 5 psi to 2 psi.
So much for warning lights. Fit a gauge, but don't fret over it. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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[url]De nada! [/url]
you know a little spanish?
[url]If it gets at all worse, do something before you find yourself shopping for replacement camshafts like me [/url]
How bad was the ticking on your tappets?
[url] Fit a gauge, but don't fret over it.[/url]
Are the mechanical gauges more accurate?
I have some brass fittings that could be used to attach piping to a simple gauge from the centre oil channel plug.
I could use this just to test under the bonnet every month, so I don't need to install the wires and a gauge inside.
Already have one for my Lambda. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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you know a little spanish?
Yes, I had a marine engineering business in Spain, lived there 20-odd years. We're only a short distance away now, so I get machining work done there.
How bad was the ticking on your tappets?
Pretty bad in the end. Progressed from ticking of a cheap alarm clock to rattling a 3mm ball bearing in a sardine can.
Are the mechanical gauges more accurate?
Not particularly for gauges of similar quality. Electric gauge is safer than running an oil pipe into the car.
I have some brass fittings that could be used to attach piping to a simple gauge from the centre oil channel plug.
I could use this just to test under the bonnet every month, so I don't need to install the wires and a gauge inside.
I think it's more useful to see oil pressure under driving conditions. Sender can be fitted to centre channel oil plug, on a tee where standard switch is fitted, or standard switch replaced with combined pressure sender /switch
Edit: If you are doubtful about the accuracy of an electric gauge, compare readings on the same pressure with a good quality mechanical one. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
How bad was the ticking on your tappets?
Pretty bad in the end. Progressed from ticking of a cheap alarm clock to rattling a 3mm ball bearing in a sardine can. |
Ok then I have nothing to worry about yet then.
mine sounds like a good quality alarm clock! Lol.
Quote: |
Electric gauge is safer than running an oil pipe into the car. |
Would never imagine installing a oil pipe in the car. I could just imagine the mess and danger that could cause if a rupture occurred.
Quote: |
I think it's more useful to see oil pressure under driving conditions. Sender can be fitted to centre channel oil plug |
Very true. I think I will get an electric one installed with the gauge inside and also compare it with a workshops mechanical gauge.
Quote: |
Yes, I had a marine engineering business in Spain, lived there 20-odd years |
So you should be fluent in Spanish after 20 years?
I've lived in Uruguay for 6 years now. Getting there, bit by bit without lessons. ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Properly installed mechanical oil pressure gauges used capilliary tubing from a restricted fitting. The fitting had a very small (a thou or so) orifice, but of course this could sometimes get blocked.
We spent years in Mallorca learning half decent Spanish, only to have almost the entire population switch to Catalan in the last few years we were there.
They now only teach Spanish (which they call Castellano) as a second language in schools, so in a few years it will probably be essential to speak Catalan in the whole NE of Spain, although there is a very large non-Catalan population who don't like this any more than we do.
Apart from them suddenly becoming unintelligable, after 25 years we just had to get away from Mallorca. The tourists were great for our business, but once retired we could do without them and the packed roads. Living on an island is already bad enough, it's only 60 km long, and the costs of getting off it with a vehicle for a holiday are very high.
To be somewhere in Spain where they speak proper Spanish we would have to go a long way south, which is a bit hot, so we moved to S France. They are Catalan here as well, but not nationalistic. - Yet! _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Just found a dealer in the UK who's got a used set for a good price (4 pounds each).
Have to ask what condition they are in.
But first I will get the oil pressure gauge fitted hopefully this weekend. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Another possibility that I need to eliminate is the tension of the timing belts.
I inspected mine and one of them feels too loose.
I could turn it more than 90 degrees!!
Tried to undo the 17mm tensioner nut and broke my wrench!!!
Have to get a new one asap and put some more tension on the belts.
I heard you can loose torque and hear some valve noise if the belt is slightly loose. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:07 am Post subject: |
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oh yesss baby.
Working by torchlight in the garage (it's a private rented one with 50 other cars!like a parking lot).
Lubricated the arm tensioners.
Removed all plugs.
Replaced the alternator belt.
Turned the crank using the alternator belt and hand on crankshaft pulley to tighten up the belt on the non tensioner side.
Pulled on the tensioner and locked in the nut!!
Same on both sides.
Checked timing. SPOT ON to the milimeter.
Replaced averything except the timing belt covers (painted them also).
Started her up and a sweet alfa came alive again. Couldn't get her out as I was in the middle of a storm!!
Anyway I idled her until she reached 85 degrees - revved her nicely and all sounded very smooooth.
Have to give it a test run tomorrow and make another video to see if you notice the difference.
As the alternator belt was off I felt the water pump pulley and it felt ok.
Was a fraction, just fraction of movement (milimeter range), but I think this may be normal.
Alternator bearing was also smooth.
Might just loosen the right blet tensioner a fraction - no whine or hum but it felt a tad tighter than the other side.I don't want a snap when the engine gets really hot.
They expand quite a bit if you feel it when cold and hot.
I think when cold you shouldn't be able to turn it more than 90 degrees by hand without a lot of force.
![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Do make sure the camshafts are in the correct position, as per the manual, when you adjust the tensioners.
If not, it is possible that the valve spring force on the camshaft affects the tension.
There is a mark on the flywheel indicating a position where there is zero force on the camshaft. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
There is a mark on the flywheel indicating a position where there is zero force on the camshaft. |
Not sure what you mean.
Are you referring to the TDC and T mark?
I lined up the grooved marks on the camshaft pulleys and the T mark on the flywheel was spot on. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Rflower:
You have a blank post.
Something happened to your reply. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Section 00 - 4 to 00 - 7 covers replacing timing belts and timing.
There is a triangular reference mark on the flywheel to indicate the position where the four cams of each camshaft do not touch their respective tappets, so the belts can be tensioned without any force from the tappets affecting tension.
This is done after a preliminary tensioning in the position where the belts are fitted (TDC No 1 cyl on firing stroke).
The crankshaft is then turned CW to the triangular mark to adjust the RH belt tension, then a full turn to align it again to adjust the LH belt tension.
That's the best description I can manage, it is best to follow the procedure in the manual.
I originally put the link to the manual at the beginning of my post, but the post came out blank. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Link for manual is www.alfaromeo33.extra.hu/ _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. a lot
Yes that makes sense now.
To tighten the belts when the cams are not touching any tappets.
I have the V mark on the flywheel clearly showing. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. I have this one. INstructions were a little tricky to follow for the first time.
Just wondering why you should complete the tensioning at the V point when the cam is not touching any tappets.
How big a difference does this make?
Just to make the tensioning easier?
I wasn't starting from scratch. The timing had already been set - I was just tensioning the belts up a little more as one of them was a tad loose. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Brit01 wrote: |
Just wondering why you should complete the tensioning at the V point when the cam is not touching any tappets. . |
Because the tension is correct with only the pressure of the tensioner spring on the belt, with no other force applied. Any tension due to valve springs would upset this.
Brit01 wrote: |
How big a difference does this make?
Just to make the tensioning easier? |
I think from a large difference to none at all, depending on the camshaft position, so best to do it by the book ![Confused](images/smiles/icon_confused.gif) _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Because the tension is correct with only the pressure of the tensioner spring on the belt, with no other force applied. |
I believe the spring can lose it's spring properties after 23 years.
I found the spring load on one side was stronger than the other.
There was play here due to it being too loose. Not good. It could slip a tooth, lose power and upset the timing causing valve noises.
This is where I intervened and added some manual pressure and locked the nut so both belts were more or less equal.
I guess a new set of tensioners would be advisable but unavailable here and the cost of new ones from UK are too much for me currently. _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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RFlower Alfa 33
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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I must admit I've added a wee bit of manual pressure to the spring tension, but this type of spring shouldn't actually lose much force over the years.
Don't forget that this adjustment is for new belts. Tension should not be altered after they have run. I never touch mine between changes. _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Don't forget that this adjustment is for new belts. Tension should not be altered after they have run. I never touch mine between changes. |
Mine have about 15,000 kms on them.
Not sure what the tension was like before. Only recently I noticed one belt was rather loose.
I applied a little more tension to this one.
I heard on several forums than sometimes the belts do need a little adjustment after some thousand kms like the alternator belt.
Just don't want a catastrophic snap when hot!!
Maybe I should get some new belts now you mention that.
Got me worried.
But I can bend both about 80 degrees when cold on the non tensioner side. I think this is about right.
![Rolling Eyes](images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif) _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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Brit01 Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 665
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:08 am Post subject: |
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I've decided to be on the safe side and change the belts.
Also the crankshaft pulley needs modifying. It was custom lathed about 6 months ago but is just a tad too big on the inner side.
When it gets really hot and expands it lightly touched the edge of the right belt and squeaks a little.
No apparent damage done. I check it often.
The garage said it will 'break in'!!!! Think I was being a bit daft believing that.
The old one is shown below. The new one is flat against the cranshaft. Shouls it be slightly curved on the inside away from the belt so it doesn't touch it?
Do you have a pic of the inside of an original pulley?
[url]
Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/url] _________________ S2 33 1988 1.7 QV
Dellorto DRLA40 (32mm venturi) |
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