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[paulhide]

Okay so got everything into place on the P4's engine change. Turn the key and nothing, not even turning over at all. Silence. Dash lights up okay. Battery is fine and starter and ECU are the same as before. Would a faulty flywheel sensor do this
Hope it's not wiring - have double-checked all the obvious.
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[Oggie]

I would expect the car would turn over without firing if it was a sensor, sounds like a starter motor excitor wiring or starter motor issue.
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PHAT 33

[eagle3]

Does the fuel pump work when you turn the ignition on?

Check battery connections.
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Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994

[paulhide]

Starter was fine before the engine change and I'm using the same loom.
Battery connections are fine as dash lights up.
Wouldn't the starter still turn the engine over even if the fuel pump wasn't working
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[john 33_16v]

Hi Paul,

Engine should turn over regardless of fuel pump and fp relay.

It could be the ignition relay- tucked up behind the t2 tester plug i think.

Try using a jump lead from the battery to the starter solenoid to see if the motor is working- if not then try another jump lead to battery earth too.

Good luck

John
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If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue

[RFlower]

Check any earth connections you might have disturbed when changing the engine (or forgotten to replace ) - especially the strap between the engine and the car body.
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Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F)

[paulhide]

Cheers, will check starter motor and fusebox relays tomorrow.
Is there a strap between engine and body? There are the main leads from the starter, attached to the L-shaped err.. attachment.
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[eagle3]

Just checking the condition of battery and connections(earth, battery to starter, +connection to solenoid). If the fuel pump doesn't buzz when you turn on the battery probably needs charging.

The lights can come on but sometimes if the connection to battery terminals is not perfect the starter won't turn.
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Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994

[RFlower]

[paulhide]

I don't think the fuel pump is buzzing - I'll double-check tomorrow, but it isn't battery condition as I also used the battery from my white carbed 33 which starts fine.
Yeah, those black cables are fine.
Ignition relay clicks when key is turned.
Will check starter motor tomorrow, but I don't think that's the problem.
Hmmm... annoying.
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[eagle3]

You never know when a battery might fail. I've changed starter motors, convinced the battery was A1 only to find that, no, the battery's dead.

Worth charging it up overnight anyway just to make sure it's ok.

Also check connections at alternator as the fat cable goes to starter via alternator IIRC.
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Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994

[LoneWolf33]

Hi Paul,

If you don't hear a click when you turn the ignition key into start
position, then the starter solenoid is probably is not energized,
especially if the dash lights are not fading at all.
In this case the power is not reaching the spade terminal on the starter
solenoid. There might be a broken connection between the ignition
switch and the starter solenoid.

If you hear a click, but the starter doesn't turns over that might be
starter solenoid problem and/or loose connection between the negative
terminal of the battery and the central earthing of the engine block,
and / or loose connection at the high current input of the starter solenoid
(where the charging wire from the alternator is connected).
If the dash lights are fading (almost) completely during the start attempt,
then it could be the battery, otherwise it is most likely a connection problem.

[paulhide]

Hi thanks,
Battery is fine as it starts my white carbed car fine.
I think you can start the car with alternator disconnected so I don't think that is the problem.
Dash isn't fading at all.
Off to check stuff now.
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[LoneWolf33]

Yes, the cranking attempts can be performed with the alternator
disconnected, it doesn't affect the operation of the starter.
But personally I'd not recommend to try with the alternator
disconnected, because if the engine fires up, the voltage regulator
may die (high transient voltages [over 70V] will be present at the output
of the unloaded / disconnected alternator).

[paulhide]

Hi LoneWolf, yes I understand that. I was just saying that the wire to the alternator wouldn't be the cause of the engine failing to turn over.

Okay so I've put a lead from battery to starter spade and the starter is okay, so that isn't the cause.

When I changed the engine I left the loom/starter motor attached to the car. I don't remember taking the spade connector off the starter motor, but just in case:
I have three spade connectors in that area for a) oil pressure b) starter motor and c) water temp I assume on throttle body:

1. A big black wire
2. A smaller black wire
3. A smaller brown wire

Which should go where/which is the starter exciter wire?
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[LoneWolf33]

Hi,

It seems the #1 will be the winner.
The oil pressure warning light sender should have a white(ish) wire,
the engine overheating light sender has a thin brown wire.

[paulhide]

Hi Lonewolf, thanks for bearing with me, I've got the engine turning over with wire number two, after replacing the spade connector and some of the wire.
(maybe the big black one is grey under grime - will check tomorrow

However, I still have a problem with the fuel pump. I attached a bulb to the two pump contacts to double check and it doesn't come on with ignition.

I've tried replacing fuel pump and injector relays with spare ones and also another CAS (flywheel/crank sensor)

The pump DOES come on when I join two contacts on the relay base and it does come on when I touch the CAS to metal and pull it away!

Should the pump always be working when ignition is on or just to prime
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[LoneWolf33]

I'm glad to hear that the starter was finally sorted.

For safety reasons the pump stops soon, when the ECU doesn't gets signal from the crankshaft sensor.
I've heard that some ML4.1 ECUs are not priming the fuel pump when the ignition is turned on.

But you've mentioned the flywheel sensor is triggers the pump for a short time when you pulling it away from a metal surface.
This is good, that's the way how the ECU (and the pump) should react. When the flywheel is turning over the ECU is (should be)
triggered continuously, and it's keeps alive the pump.

Try to move the car slowly in 5th gear with ignition on and check the test light connected to the supply wires of the pump,
or just listen to the pump and the pump relay noise. If the pump starts up then for a few moments then it is works as it should.

[paulhide]

Well I'm having fun. The car fired up with engine very rattly then went down to two cylinders and then died on me and I'm left with a wonderful short when ignition is on. pahh!!
Checked plugs and compression - which are all good, but the short
intermittantly clicks the idle valve, pump relay and indicators and also fires a plug!! How can that happen??

Should the two white wires on the coil go to +ve or -ve? Would that wrongly wired do something like this?

Have run out of time and light to investigate.
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[LoneWolf33]

Hi,

The white wires should be connected to the - terminal, marked with "1" on Bosch coils.

There's a two pole connector near the injector main and fuel pump relays.
Two wires were belonging to this connector a pink and a pink with white stripe.
If the pink wire is shorted to the battery positive (or gets energized somehow
without turning the ignition switch to ON position), the injector main relay,
and the ECU (including the related circuits) will start up except the ignition,
which is supplied separately, through a black-green wire.
So the pink and the black-green must be energized simultaneously, which probably points
to the ignition switch as the source of the problem.

[paulhide]

Hi Lonewolf, thanks so much for this. It gives me something to look for as I was a bit in the dark with stuff like this. I hope to have time to check this out on Wednesday although the weathermen reckon going to be between 0 and 3 degrees and I don't have a heated garage. :-/
(Fancy coming up here and helping BigAl )

Could a faulty crank sensor cause anything like this?
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[BigAl]

I would if is wasnt so far, shame, i was in leeds on friday lol closer lol
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[LoneWolf33]

[paulhide]

No short with ignition off. Just with key turned one click ie not engine running, but dash lit up.

Short symptoms disappeared with flywheel sensor disconnected.

I know you love working in cold weather Al.
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[lee16v]

Hi Paul.

You probably have double checked the earthing point by the starter and associated cables but I did have an earth strap go on a pug 306 once and it sent the car scatty.