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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: So my 33 just caught fire... |
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Hi everyone,
long story short I finally took some time to put the engine back on my 16v 33.
Started the engine for the first time yesterday, everything went great, good iddle and everything.
Today I give it a try again and after a few seconds, BAM the engine catches fire ! I suppose it originated from a burst fuel line (and more precisely, the one right after the pressure regulator that goes to the driver-side injectors). By the time I reached for the fire extinguisher, the flames were quite high. Hopefully they were quickly put down and no innocent bystander was harmed.
My first question is, would this kind of incident cause a lot of harm to the engine ? The fire was located in the back of the driver-side engine head, is there a risk that the gasket was blown ? The fire burned there for maybe 2 or 3 minutes maximum...
Will post a pic of the aftermath soon
Thanks for any input ! |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Oh and also, I think the fire started due to the fact that I did not put the exhaust back on the engine, which was a pretty silly thing to do so maybe the hot gases were enough to ignite the whole stuff.
Might also come from a spark caused by a defective electrical connection.... Again any input on that is welcome |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Finally here is the pic
Cleaned the powder after that... the paint on the block is still in its original condition and since its max temperature rating is 140°C I think it is safe to believe that the fire did not exceed 200°C... Same thing can be said with the one I used on the engine bay.
A lot of stuff has been obviously damaged, such as water pipes, electrical connections... My main concern is still the head though. The cover gasket seems in good gondition but I wonder if the head was damaged (it's in aluminium and it is said that these kind of engines do not like sudden heating...)...Any input welcome !
The fuel lines made from hard plastic that go from the tank up to the front of the car melted a little so I believe I will have to change them too, preferably with something stronger (I'm clearly not going to take some used parts after what happened).
If more pics are needed I will gladly take some too.
Thank you ! |
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john 33_16v 16 Valve
Joined: 27 May 2005 Posts: 1406 Location: herts, uk
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: |
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At least no-one was hurt.
As long as the cambelts/ tensioners are unaffected you could try a compression test on that side to check the head/gasket. This could be done on the starter motor after disconnecting the coil and fuel pump.
Good luck
John _________________ If it aint broke, fiddle with it until it is!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
93 33 16v Mirtle Met
08 Fiat Grande Punto Exotica Red
90 Yamaha FZR600 Genesis- Silky white/red/blue |
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gritsop Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 766 Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
Nylon fuel pipes on the intake are the best solution the manufacturer has installed. If you go to rubber hoses then they will fail every month... The best solution is to find a replacement pipework.
We would like to see photos of the engine and the repairs you are doing _________________ Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your answers,
As John suggested I will try to do a compression test for this week-end.
Gritsop : I am afraid that original spares for the fuel line that runs on the top of the engine are very hard to find... And I'd rather not use a second-hand part after the incident. A friend told me about using braided fuel lines, they seems pretty solid compared to the thin factory lines, does that sounds like a possible solution ? |
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gritsop Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 766 Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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You may use braided hoses provided that they are not rubber under the outer layer. Factory supplied fuel rail is nylon and wrapped in heat proof material, in order fuel which runs on the inside doesn't evaporate.
In my opinion OEM fuel rails are suitable as the nylon hose is heat-shrinked where it is inserted on the rail along with a special o-ring. Braided hoses which have a nylon internal surface are not adequate to be leak free where it meets the fuel rail.
I can understand you being sceptical on using again another fuel rail but keep in mind that most of the times, fuel leaks can happen on these two areas which have rubber hoses.
1. Upstream and downstream of the pulsation damper
2. fuel filter outlet port.
My guess is that the fire was caused from any of these two areas.
Regards _________________ Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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eagle3 Alfa 33
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 402 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Part 2 is just a plastic cover which can be removed through the wheel arch. It just pulls off.
Although not essential it stops dirt and water getting on the rack. I would think you had a leak around the fuel filter. Possibly the copper seals for the banjo connectors. _________________ Alfa33 QO 1984
Alfa33 1.3i.e. 1994 |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Oh and apparently the leak started right at the beginning of the injection line. Banjo copper rings were not involved because I had changed them a few months before |
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Ian M Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Posts: 911 Location: Bath Somerset
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Give Alex Poulter AKA 33bits a call He will probably be able to help you with parts.
His phone number is 07896327708. _________________ Presntly own
Red Abarth 500c |
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RFlower Alfa 33
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 Posts: 432 Location: S of France
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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alfa per la vita wrote: |
OK cleaned the bluish powder today. Couldn't get rid of all of it even after emptying 3 brake cleaner cans ! But I suppose that will be enough, what is left is like stuck on the parts and is not going to get inside the engine while repairing it..... |
You may find that the powder is soluble in water. If it is blue it should be sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), not the best for fuel fires, but, hey, it worked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher _________________ Dick Flower, Nr. Carcassonne. '94 Trofeo 1.4 ie (F), '93 Imola 1.3/1.4 ie (now for breaking) (F), '91 1.7 ie (GB)(spare car), '86 Sprint 1.5 QV (F). '87 VW Syncro camper (F), '73 NSU Ro80 (F), '99 Fiat Seicento (F) |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Ian for the tip. I'll remember that
Hopefully Gritsop managed to track down all the parts I needed for the repairs so far.
The fire extinguisher contained ABC powder - or was at least rated for ABC-class fires. If it is indeed ABC powder it is apparently both corrosive and abrasive . I protected both the exhaust and the intake to make sure that nothing gets inside anyway. Some new parts I had just put on the engine already showed some signs of superficial rust a few days after washing the engine bay with water. Will see how this turns out !
I'll probably start repairing the electrical stuff this weekend. I might not be able to work as fast as I want on the car at the moment but I'll keep you posted !
Thanks again to everyone
EDIT : RFlower you are right it seems that it is indeed baking soda. Which is weird since it should be rated BC instead of ABC
If an engine fire happens to anyone : ABC powder is corrosive and is usually yellow. It should not be used on engines. BC powder is white-bluish and is "only" baking soda. So I guess I should be OK. The rust I saw must have come from the water I used to clean the engine bay. |
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Johnpm1967 Alfasud
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 32 Location: Tewkesbury
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Been reading with interest. I teach chemistry and so may be able to help. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate and baking powder also has an acid in it. Both are used to release CO2. One is a base an alkai in water the other is both so fizzes when adding water (CO2). Use plenty of water and a brush. It is residue damp which will cause harm. |
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Admin Site Admin
Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1223 Location: Stafford, UK
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
Petrol isn't that flamable (unlike petrol vapour). It shouldn't ignite from just heat and needs a spark.
However running the engine without the exhaust you effectlvely do have something to ignition it (the burning gas from the exhaust).
All the best
Keith _________________ I owe, I owe, its off to work we go.
Bimota Forum
Stafford Christmas Lights
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I am now almost certain that the fire originated from the exhaust gases (and more precisely, the ones from the fourth cylinder). It is very unlikely that it came form an electric spark (it was only 14V maximum after all). However the temp of the exhaust gases are nearly 800°C while the auto-ignition of petrol is 250°C... That wil teach me!
Concerning the powder residue, it is really a pain to get rid of it. I took out all of the damp residues but there is now a very thin layer of whitish powder on some metallic parts. If I put water on it it will dilute but as it dries it will come back. Will try to use some household cleaning products on this...
I have rewired the injectors, the coil and the temperature sensor. The connectors for the injectors are of Bosch EV1 type.
I am waiting for the spares from Gritsop now...
Best regards |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Also when I rebuilt the engine I could not find the proper paper gaskets for the front and back engine cases so I used black Loctite. I think it cannot whitstand high temp like a burning flame on it but so far there is no oil leak... keeping my finger crossed |
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alfafan Alfasud
Joined: 16 Mar 2003 Posts: 83 Location: Coimbra - Portugal
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Nylon fuel pipes on the intake are the best solution the manufacturer has installed. If you go to rubber hoses then they will fail every month... |
Why do you say that?
What does the 33 16V has that is different of other cars?
I have other injected models more powerfull than the 33 and they have rubber hoses.
You can buy normal fuel hoses, and hi pressure ones, and these last are a lot stronger than the normal ones, and never had a failure on them. |
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gritsop Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 766 Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:24 am Post subject: |
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A friend of mine who is also reading this forum had sometime in the past the very same incident like our friend had. The fuel rail was burnt and since then he has been using rubber fuel hoses in the place of the nylon rail.
We have tried cloth braided hoses, high pressure hoses all at being quality products and after a couple of months use they start to crack. It is not a nice thing to have almost 60cm of fuel line in rubber ready to crack and spill fuel on the engine block. The manufacturer was clever enough to use nylon fuel line wrapped in heat proof material - otherwise he would have used rubber hoses all around and have many points of failure.
If I compare eg the 147 to the 33, the 33 has around 10 small (approx. 10 cm) fuel hoses from the tank to the engine whereas the 147 has only one fuel hose located on the engine bay. The line from the tank to the engine is solely nylon. Image what would have happened if there were more rubber lines or if the 33 - which has around 10 small hoses - had another ~60cm of rubber hose... You would have many points of failure which mean fire hazard. _________________ Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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So I finally put everything back in the car, thanks again to Gritsop for tracking down the parts I needed.
However I now have some trouble getting the car starting! I have no spark at all. I checked the tension at the coil and it stays at 0 no matter what I do.
Will check on the workshop manual what may have gone wrong... And keep you posted with my findings! |
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alfa per la vita Alfasud
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: It's alive! |
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Finally figured out my problem last sunday! Somehow I got mistaken when I redid the wiring that had burnt...
Everything is cool and undercontrol (for now...) with a good idle speed, hope the engine won't die on me now! |
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