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33 P4 Fuse blowing / electrical problem

 
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kevinatkins
Alfa Arna


Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 18
Location: cheshire, uk

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject: 33 P4 Fuse blowing / electrical problem Reply with quote

Hi,

I've just replaced my 33 1.7IE with a slightly decrepit P4, which is mechanically pretty good but bodily, er, untidy.

Anyway, after a marathon welding session, I just had one more bit of patching to do and set about MIGing in a small repair patch - and managed to forget to disconnect the battery. OH DEAR.

The good news is that the engine still starts and runs, and most stuff works, but now the 'Service' fuse keeps blowing, I've got no instruments, and the 4WD won't work...

Through a process of elimination, I don't think the engine management ECU has been harmed, nor the actual 4WD control box. And the alternator seems OK.

Has anybody got any ideas on what the 'Service' fuse supplies, or perhaps a circuit diagram?

Any help would be much appreciated...

Thanks!
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bobbber
P4


Joined: 14 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer is yes... but you'll have to send me a PM with your Email address before I can send it to you.

I think the 'services' fuse does lots of things!!!!

Bob
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bobbber
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Services does :

Four wheel drive control unit
Relay for four wheel drive power supply
Four wheel drive malfunction warning light
Four wheel engaged warning light
Supplimentary brake light switch

Hope that helps!

Bob
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paulhide
P4


Joined: 20 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is this services fuse just in case I ever have to know? Or are we just talking about a fuse in the normal fusebox?
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tvatavuk
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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Location: Split, Croatia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it also powers radio unit.

- To rule out 4x4 el. coupling, take off fuse on 4x4 relay, or even better take off whole relay.
- check all 4 wires on 2 brake switches for short circuit.
- alternator check battery voltage when you turn engine on, anything below 12.4V and battery is not charging, anything higher then 14.4V and regulator diode/brushes on need changing.
- if nothing helps, turn off all 3 connectors from instrument table, if that helps, then remove speedo connectors from instrument table
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo
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kevinatkins
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Joined: 07 Dec 2005
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Location: cheshire, uk

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for everyone's help on this.

Tvatavuk, where is the 4x4 relay - is it under the car? I'm still trying to find my way around the vehicle, but it's difficult without technical info!

Actually, just to fill you in, when I first tried to start the car after my welding accident, engine started, and the 4x4 light flashed on and off and the EM coupling 'chattered'; then all instruments went dead..

So far, I have removed the 4x4 control box completely, plus alternator. The fuse still blows fairly quickly when I turn the ignition on (obviously, I don't try to start the engine)

I'll check the relay etc when I find it, and post back with results.

PS - Paulhide - the service fuse is in the main fusebox on the dashboard - it's in the top middle position. Not sure if it's there on all models though?
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paulhide
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4X4 relay is under the bonnet near the battery. Should have it's own fuse in it.
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tvatavuk
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kevin,
somehow I managed to have blind eye on welding part of post.

In normal circumstances EM couldn't engage without 4x4 ecu because it gives power to 4x4 relay, but hipower changes everything.
Alternator out too, ok.

Way you desribe it, fuse blows while car is still in electronics check-up fase.
This now smells of instrument panel or relay, let's hope it isn't injection ECU (or some shorted wire somewhere).
Open bonet and take of all relays around batery that have fuses, there should be 2 max 3 relays.
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kevinatkins
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

OK, I found 5 relays by the battery, three of which were fitted with fuses. Anyway, I removed all of them, including a fuse in one of the relay sockets. Turned ignition on, and the service fuse blew again.

So now I'm beginning to wonder if a fault condition has caused a wiring short perhaps. The current state of the car is as follows -

4x4 control box in boot removed;
Engine ECU removed;
Alternator removed;
Instrument binnacle removed;
Radio removed.

There was also an after-market alarm fitted to the car, which I have also completely disconnected.

I've basically tried to remove all the 'electronics' from the car, which I felt would be the most likely to have suffered damage during the welding. Is there anything else I could have missed?

It's dark and cold here now, so I'll have another look tomorrow. Thanks again to everyone for all the help so far - if nothing else, I'm learning about the car, which is good.
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tvatavuk
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad Something for the morning.

U did replace battery? Or at least check voltage on it to be 12.4V or close under?

Last two relays without fuses should be for fuel pump, take them also in case you didn't.

Anyway 2 more power hungy things left to disconnect
- starter it is 10,13 or 17hex to take off +12v from it, while ground is pure connector unplugs with hand
- spark generator
Both things have constant 12v on them so be careful, maybe unplug battery before.

If that doesn't do trick
You're left with air ventilation, wheel ignition lock or crazy things like indicators lever and such.

You can also remove indicatrs solenoid switch, or other relays in fuse box.
you never know.

Good luck.
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo


Last edited by tvatavuk on Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kevinatkins
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tvatavuk,

In the morning I'll check out the starter and ignition systems as you suggest, and let you know of results.

I've got all day tomorrow, so I'm hopeful I'll be able to discover the problem.. then I've got to submit the car for its MoT, which is our test for roadworthiness here in the UK. With luck, it should pass...
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kevinatkins
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I've sorted the problem out - it turned out to be a short behind the fusebox. So it looks like an unhappy coincidence perhaps?

That said, the alternator had been damaged by my mistake, so I've replaced that. And while I was there, I also replaced the thermostat and a few dodgy looking hoses, so the car is nearly ready for the off.

I've got a cam belts, tensioners and a water pump on order, which I'm really keen to fit as soon as possible. It had belts on 30,000 miles ago, but that was back in 2000, so I thought 5 years is pushing it a bit.

Anyway, many thanks for everybody's help with this - a good forum like this really enhances the pleasure of owning one of these cars. Very Happy
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kevinatkins
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh oh,

The problem has just occurred again during the MoT test, so the car failed because rear brake lights were out, amongst other things...

Looks like I didn't fix it after all Embarassed

Bobbber, I've sent you a PM with my email address - would you be able to email me a wiring diagram? I'd be eternally grateful!

Thanks again for all the help so far.
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Admin
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

The wiring diagrams for the series 3 cars are 380 pages long!

All the best

Keith
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Hi

The wiring diagrams for the series 3 cars are 380 pages long!

All the best

Keith


Ah, right... Nuff said!!

I shall look on this as a bit of a Christmas project.

Just like to say thanks again to everyone for their interest and help - I have learned something here, and that's the important thing.
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bobbber
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kevin,

Yes I've got your email address - and will send it to you tonight.

Might take a while though.

Bob
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