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johnboy
16 Valve
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1061
Location: margate U.K
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 Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:11 pm Post subject: driving a skyline |
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Hi guys
just drove my brothers skyline r34 gts v-spec. what a car. 2.5 single turbo so less lagg.its been played with, so much fun.ive always liked them.but now ive driven one ive got to get one. not so much fun driving my alfa home  will have to keep the 33 aswell tho 
regards john
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WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!
Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:49 am Post subject: skylines |
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i drove a friends r33 gtst (boosted etc) and i thought it was really .. well...plasticy and vauge. But the power OH MY GOD
my sprint certainly cant break traction in 4th! |
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johnboy
16 Valve
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1061
Location: margate U.K
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: skylines |
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| Anonymous wrote: |
i drove a friends r33 gtst (boosted etc) and i thought it was really .. well...plasticy and vauge. But the power OH MY GOD
my sprint certainly cant break traction in 4th! |
Hi there
yeah the inside is crap, the seats you sit on as to sit in them. my recaro's are much better. ive had the car for the last four hour's and have just given it back again,not happy now. took one of my mates out in it, first corner side ways .as you say spin's up to 4th love it. i wish alfa would build some thing mad like this!
regards john
_________________
WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!
Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet |
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Ravi - not logged in
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Alfa wouldn't build something that had it's rear axle so poorly placed and power relay so ineffecient that the wheels would spin in 4th! The Skylines only have a maximum of 206Kw right? Even the 147 GTA has 184Kw. Wait for the Brera with 300Kw to come out - that will murder any Skyline... |
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Ben_nz
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Alfa wouldn't build something that had it's rear axle so poorly placed and power relay so ineffecient that the wheels would spin in 4th! |
Alfa wouldn't build something that wasn't front wheel drive. =(
| Quote: |
| The Skylines only have a maximum of 206Kw right? Even the 147 GTA has 184Kw. Wait for the Brera with 300Kw to come out - that will murder any Skyline... |
Whenever you see 206kW listed as the power output of a Japanese car, be suspicious. For years now Japanese manufacturers haven't quoted power outputs higher than 206kW, regardless of whether the engine actually puts out more than 206kW or not. If the motor was actually 250kW, 300kW etc, they'd just say "206kW" with a wink and a sly smile. Only very recently has this agreement been broken, with some manufacturers quoting power outputs greater than 206kW.
It would be nice if Alfa put the Brera or 8C Competizione into production, with RWD and 300kW, but I'm not holding my breath. Don't underestimate how hard it'd be to murder a 4WD turbo Skyline, either..  |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Ravi - not logged in wrote: |
| Alfa wouldn't build something that had it's rear axle so poorly placed and power relay so ineffecient that the wheels would spin in 4th! The Skylines only have a maximum of 206Kw right? Even the 147 GTA has 184Kw. Wait for the Brera with 300Kw to come out - that will murder any Skyline... |
murder any skyline eh? i think not lol.
welcome to the world of jap cars. they work for a start and they tend to be faster than alfa's. unless you get a micra.
the gtr skyline is 4.7 secs to 60 and i doubt that the alfa will be faster than 6 secs. i'm a big alfa fan, but having had 2 jap cars for the last 3 years i know how fast they really are.
i'll race any alfa even the 147gta in my crappy '87 nissan silvia 1.8turbo rwd and kick the silly little hot hatches arse. on the track of course. the roads are no place to mess around.
lots of reviews of the gta say that its an amazing car but struggles to get the power down due to being scrabble wheel drive.
all this front wheel drive rubbish is why i dont have a new alfa. if they made a nice rwd one then i'll defo get a more modern alfa.
also the single turbo skylines have more lag than the twin turbo ones. this is due to the 2 turbos being small and spinning up faster. the larger single turbo has more lag and less peek power.
just because a car's bhp numbers are big doesnt make it fast.
the gta has 246? ish and its only 6.1 sec to 60. a stock nissan pulsar is only 2.0 engine with a small t28 turbo and its 0-60 is 5.1. the stock power is only 227bhp.
ok so the same two cars at top speed would be the other way round as the top end of the pulsar(stock) is 147 and the 147gta is 153. they are both the same insurance group and the gta is scrabble wheel drive.
but if you look at the in gear speeds the alfa is miles behind the more than 10 year old nissan.
i'm not anti alfa. far from it as my current 33 P4 is my 6th alfa and i love it. but i am realistic as to how quick it is.
the skyline is a near super car when you are looking at the gtr's and the gtst are brilliant drift cars with loads of power and torque. just because they only have 280bhp doesnt mean they are slow.
but the best part of owning a jap car is, its very easy to get big power out of them and still be able to use them as a daily driver.
L.
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ben - the boys at Alfa seem to be having crazy dreams about the Brera.
Latest inside info is that a version will be fitted with a 4.2 Litre Maserati V8 with 400bhp, as seen on the 8C. This version will have all wheel drive, (and possibly all wheel steering, like on the Q4 version of the Alfa 157). It sounds nuts, I know, but this info is true!
Paddy. |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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400bhp awd would be mental. i wonder if alfa will go through with it.
some boring person in the finace department will rubbish the idea and the last we will see if it will be a concept.
fingers crossed they do make it!
L.
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| LDA wrote: |
400bhp awd would be mental. i wonder if alfa will go through with it.
some boring person in the finace department will rubbish the idea and the last we will see if it will be a concept.
fingers crossed they do make it!
L. |
The problem is FIAT are not in the best financial situation right now, so I wouldn't be surprised if the V8 idea was scrapped. There will be more awd versions of the Brera though, including some diesel ones. Their ideas for the 148 GTA are equally bonkers, if not more. 
BTW, I take it you have seen the photographs of the production version of the Brera? See the following link.
http://www.italiaspeed.com/2004/cars/alfa_romeo/10/946/pro946_0210.html
Paddy. |
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johnboy
16 Valve
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1061
Location: margate U.K
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Guy's
The only way alfa is going to build crazy alfa's again is to cut cost's on a sirten red prancing horse f1 team that's about.
Jap car's are cool, the yank's love them, as jap car's go round corner's and look good.where there car's dont and as some of you have said they are easy to tune. there is a sunny gtir going round where i live with around 500 bhp+,he has spent loads of money on it, but this thing kill's everything!. my brother's getting his tuned up on the 8th and getting it put on a rolling road so we can see what the bhp is.
P.S. i still love my 33, she fly's. a quick mod if you have a 16v on the air flow meter,take off the top of the cover and undo the nut,take the spring back one notch on the kogg.should give you abit more go.but mark the factory setting so if you dont like it you can put it back,get the co2 checked and thats it. i think it's abit quicker now 
all best john
_________________
WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!
Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet |
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Ben_nz
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| BTW, I take it you have seen the photographs of the production version of the Brera? |
No, I hadn't seen those.
I can believe Alfa would put that car into production - it certainly has poor enough visibility to qualify as a modern Alfa. But a 400hp V8? You can't mount that transversely, it's too long! |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: |
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no i hadnt seen that before. i was wondering where you lot were getting you insider info. now i know!
i could belive 260odd bhp for the gta with 4wd but they will never build a 400bhp car. look at the market they are trying to sell to. there is nothing in alfa's class that has more than about 300 currently. maybe the m3 but alfa dont really build anything that can keep pace with it so its not in their class.
as said above. fiat are not the most well off motor company in the world. so i dont think that we will be seing any sub 6 sec cars from alfa in the near future.
500+bhp pulsar.. are you in australia?
it could well be ivan tomic's monster pulsar. very very fast indeed. makes mine look like its going backwards.
the reason i like jap cars is because they are cheap, very fast and reliable. never missed a beat even after turning up the car from 227 to 411bhp.
then again, even tho i have 2 jap cars i have just got another 33 cos they are great to drive even with all then millions of faults.
fingers crossed alfa build a rwd or 4wd powerful car in the not too distant future. i'd buy one!
L.
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| LDA wrote: |
i was wondering where you lot were getting you insider info. now i know!
L. |
Err - you will notice that that article was written by my brother, James, and that the new one on the 148 by me (see front page www.italiaspeed.com), along with many others on future Alfa's which were also written by us. These include articles on the 157 and Kamal, and carbon fibre chassis designs. The information comes from a small number of people who leak it to us.
The only rwd Alfa that might come out soon is the 8C, that is if they find enough cash to finance production. The base model Brera's, 157's, and 148's will all be fwd. But for a change the higher spec ones will be awd.
The biggest improvement on the Q4 version of the 157, over the 4x4 156 Crosswagon, will be a new 'active' rear differential, like seen on the Ferrari F430. This will accompany the central Torson-C diff. Also expect active rear anti-roll bars, which stiffen up under hard driving!
The potential GTA engines on the 148 article are not quite correct, although they are still considering some of them (some output figures are slightly off / preliminary as well  ). I received the info on these engines in June, and now in December they are still considering a 4.2 V8 JTS. The 4.3 V8 Maserati engine is no longer under consideration (will be featured in the Brera though). These GTA engine possibilities are probably all made up by Alfa though, to make us forget about the fact that they are about to sell us cars with GM engines!! |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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dont like the sound of an active diff. i just want either 3 way 100% lock or a good amount of 2way lock. active sounds like its trying to stop the back coming round. thats no bloody good for drifting 
i had no idea that there was such close ties to the alfa factory info via leeks. i thought that most of the stuff was an educated guess. glad to see thre are these close links to the owners/press.
been reading the site all morning. lots of very interesting stuff. good job
L.
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johnboy
16 Valve
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1061
Location: margate U.K
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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500+bhp pulsar.. are you in australia?
it could well be ivan tomic's monster pulsar. very very fast indeed. makes mine look like its going backwards.
the reason i like jap cars is because they are cheap, very fast and reliable. never missed a beat even after turning up the car from 227 to 411bhp.
Hi lda
No im in sunny margate kent. the guy who has the car has spent loads on it, it was built by tuning japaneses in oldershot. hes trying out the cryogenics kit ,he said it works well and is safer than nos.i was thinking of building my own kit as its only CO2.
regards john
_________________
WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!
Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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over 500 and you in the uk. there are only about 3 or 4 R's with that much power. its not bruce's car is it?
did he run at 10 of the best? any pics..
gotta love them big power R's
L.
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johnboy
16 Valve
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
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Location: margate U.K
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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did he run at 10 of the best? any pics..
gotta love them big power R's
His name is john holland he lives in margate aswell. i will try and get some photo's for you ok
regards john
_________________
WODA WE NEED? MORE POWER!!
Alfa gt jtdm blackline
1990 S2 16v veloce sleeping!
2002 ts gtv the wifes now
1997 seadoo gsx 800
1999 freestyle superjet |
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Ravi - not logged in
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Howzit All
Haven't been back here for a while - didn't realise my post would have got so much attention!!
In case you were wondering - I was getting my information on the Alfa 8C/Brera from here:
http://www.homdrum.no/alfa/alfa_news.html
great little web-site, whoever runs it. As you will see the 8C is listed as likely to have a 500bhp engine (my mistake earlier) and likely to hit 0-100km/h in 4.5 seconds. That's as quick as any Skyline GTR, and with AWD is likely to stick to the road as well as any GTR also. The Brera is said to have the 400bhp Maserati engine. I know it's not all about power at the fly-wheel, but given that an 8C has already been built, then these figures are likely to be reasonably accurate if it is to be released.
Now I'm not disputing the fact that a lot of the new Japanese cars are bloody awesome (although invariably I think they look like sh*t) - the Skyline GTR's, Rex's, Silvia's etc etc. These cars are all monsters and would defecate on any 33, or any other new, base model, stock Alfa from a great height. But if you think a Nissan pulsar with a turbo is going to hit 0-100km/h in 5.1 seconds you’re dreaming. Even the N15 Nissan Silvia (with the same 2.0 engine as the Pulsar turbos) is only listed by the Nissan factory as hitting 100km in 6.9 seconds. How you can say that a 3.2 litre, 24 valve, V6, producing 184Kw, often written up as one of the best naturally aspirated 6 cylinders ever, is behind the times of an N13(?) 2.0 turbo Silvia, is beyond me - they are great cars but no match for a 147 GTA. BTW - so there's no confusion, I'm talking factory cars here - you could dump a super-charged V8 in the back seat of a Beetle and it would go quick.
The fact that the GTA is front wheel drive is a tremendous shame - agree with you there, but I heard they were bringing out the all-wheel drive version shortly. That said, the 147GTA is an awesome drive, and bloody quick too - I drove one recently and it felt quicker and with a much, much smoother power delivery than my mate's 2002 Nissan 200 SX. I obviously couldn't push either car in the handling department too much as they were not mine!!
Anyway - my 2 cents. I think the new Jap cars are awesome and for the most part, likely to whoop ass on the current Alfas performance wise. However, I think the 147 GTA will give any factory 2 litre turbo Nissan a run, notwithstanding that it is front wheel drive. The Brera and the 8C will raise that bar further...
Cheers
R |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Ravi - not logged in wrote: |
Howzit All
Haven't been back here for a while - didn't realise my post would have got so much attention!!
In case you were wondering - I was getting my information on the Alfa 8C/Brera from here:
http://www.homdrum.no/alfa/alfa_news.html
great little web-site, whoever runs it. As you will see the 8C is listed as likely to have a 500bhp engine (my mistake earlier) and likely to hit 0-100km/h in 4.5 seconds. That's as quick as any Skyline GTR, and with AWD is likely to stick to the road as well as any GTR also. The Brera is said to have the 400bhp Maserati engine. I know it's not all about power at the fly-wheel, but given that an 8C has already been built, then these figures are likely to be reasonably accurate if it is to be released.
Now I'm not disputing the fact that a lot of the new Japanese cars are bloody awesome (although invariably I think they look like sh*t) - the Skyline GTR's, Rex's, Silvia's etc etc. These cars are all monsters and would defecate on any 33, or any other new, base model, stock Alfa from a great height. But if you think a Nissan pulsar with a turbo is going to hit 0-100km/h in 5.1 seconds you’re dreaming. Even the N15 Nissan Silvia (with the same 2.0 engine as the Pulsar turbos) is only listed by the Nissan factory as hitting 100km in 6.9 seconds. How you can say that a 3.2 litre, 24 valve, V6, producing 184Kw, often written up as one of the best naturally aspirated 6 cylinders ever, is behind the times of an N13(?) 2.0 turbo Silvia, is beyond me - they are great cars but no match for a 147 GTA. BTW - so there's no confusion, I'm talking factory cars here - you could dump a super-charged V8 in the back seat of a Beetle and it would go quick.
The fact that the GTA is front wheel drive is a tremendous shame - agree with you there, but I heard they were bringing out the all-wheel drive version shortly. That said, the 147GTA is an awesome drive, and bloody quick too - I drove one recently and it felt quicker and with a much, much smoother power delivery than my mate's 2002 Nissan 200 SX. I obviously couldn't push either car in the handling department too much as they were not mine!!
Anyway - my 2 cents. I think the new Jap cars are awesome and for the most part, likely to whoop ass on the current Alfas performance wise. However, I think the 147 GTA will give any factory 2 litre turbo Nissan a run, notwithstanding that it is front wheel drive. The Brera and the 8C will raise that bar further...
Cheers
R |
right where to start.
yep jap cars are mainly ugly. tend to agree with that.
the 8c 4.5 secs? thats .2 secs faster than a skyline gtr!  if they ever build it.
5.1 secs to 60. yep its true. .1 secs faster than a toyota celica gt4 st205.
the RNN14 GTIR is 4wd with a slip diff and a similar engine to the s15 silvia you are talking about.
the n15 is heaver and only rear wheel drive. so it cant put its 250bhp down as hard as the 227bhp pulsar.
the pulsar also has many internal engine mods that other SR20DET nissnas dont have.
quad throttle bodies, sodium filled valves, oil squirt for pistons, hybrid t28H turbo, high rev cam and valve setup, forged pistons and quick shift gearbox.
this along with 4wd means that if you rev your GTiR to 6800rpm and dump the clutch, you are 2 or 3 car lengeths ahead of what ever it is you were racing before they have even finished pulling up their clutch.
the s15 silvia however is 0-60 in 5.6 secs. so still faster than a focus RS or a 147GTA. but getting that time is hard as its only rwd. the pulsar is much easier to launch and get a good 0-60 every time due to the 4wd.
the 2002 200sx s14 is only 200bhp and i think they are slow. top drift cars tho. but about 6.5-.67 (cant remember the exact times) to 60. slooooow.
if you think that the little nissan pulsar rnn14 GTiR is slower up the strip or round a track than a 147GTA then you have got another thing coming
what is the 1/4mile time for the GTA? a stock pulsar can do 13.9seconds.
if the GTA was that fast then i would get one, but its not so i havent (and its fwd). lets get a stock GTA and a stock GTiR on a track and see what happens.
no nissan Vs alfa war or anything. just 2 cars, 2 drivers and one track. see what happens. time trial style so as not to take each other out.
i'd put money on the alfa not getting close to the GTiR if the speeds didnt go above 130mph for a long time.
if it was a top speed race then the GTA will beat the GTiR. 153mph for the alfa and only 147 for the R. but the R will get to 147 faster than the GTA will.
are you anywhere near sussex? if so then come round and have a play with my pulsar. not really a fair test as mine is just over 400bhp but i could turn the boost right down and leave the hand brake on.
if they ever build the 8C than it will be a wonderful car that will truly be a super car and much faster than a skyline. lets hope they do build it.
but it still wont be quicker than the fastest nissan. look up the R390.
do you really think that ferrari will let their little brother build a faster car than theirs? well i dont think they will let it happen.
L.
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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A bit of bad news chaps. - the 8C will probably not be made. It is fully developed and ready for production, but that is where the story will probably end. Will keep you all informed.
As for the Brera, it will be launched at Geneva, and will have awd for the big engines!
Paddy. |
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gritsop
Green Cloverleaf
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 766
Location: Ekali, Athens - Greece
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
I 'd also add that the new 157 V6 3.2 will have a Aussie produced General Motors engine 
Too bad that Alfa's will behave like Opels or Daewoos...
Not too good.
Regards,
_________________
Thanassis Gritsopoulos
1991 Alfa 33 1.4 IE
2001 Alfa 147 1.6 Distinctive
http://www.alfa-restoration.co.uk
Parts Shop: www.alfa-restoration.co.uk/shop |
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tvatavuk
Gold Cloverleaf
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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You never know what will come out of it, Alfa will do their best at reasonable price to make it something completly different from usual GM engine, ad a few tweaks here, insert some new alfa virus bugs there...
After all 2.0 TS as we know it is built up on FIAT block, and one of two its main flaws lays there.
Tino
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Tino Vatavuk
Little black dress which replaced Alfa Romeo 33 S 16v Permanent 4 GMo |
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paddy granger
Alfa Sprint
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently the new GM V6 is a very bad engine! Alfa have fully re-engineered the engine though, and all of the internals are new. The basic block is the same, but the pistons, liners, head, manifold, injection system etc are all new.
And the engineers have tried to replicate the tradtional Alfa V6 sound too!!! |
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Ravi - not logged (again)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Hey again
I think I must have been mistaken about the car you're talking about - I'm not exactly sure what a GTiR Pulsar is?! I thought you just meant a Pulsar with a 200SX motor in it or something... Down in Australia we don't have such cars (that I've seen) as an AWD, majorly turbo-charged Pulsar, with Na filled valves, high lift cams etc etc!! Sounds like a mini Skyline GTR, only half the weight probably!!! Granted - that thing would probably eat up an Alfa 147 GTA.
The quickest Nissans (apart from the big Skylines) over here are the GT's and S15 Silvias. You mentioned the S15 Silvia - the specifications I can find for it says that it does the quarter mile in 14.80, whereas the ones I find for the Alfa 147 GTA say that it does it in 14.60. I reckon those two cars would be an awesome match on the track. Further, if you were a good driver, the difference between a 13.90 quarter mile and 14.60 quarter mile wouldn't be too difficult to make up on the track. My Dad used to race his 1969 Alfa 105 'GTA' (read Alfa 75 2.0 twin spark tuned to 180bhp) in the Targa Tasmania and hammered many turboed Jap cars through better driving...
The AWD of the Pulsar you mentioned earlier is a massive advantage, same goes for the Skyline GTR, Rex's and other such hyperactive turbo-charged Jap cars. But if a true comparison is going to happen - wait till the 147/8 GTA gets all wheel drive - it's likely the engine will be bored out to a 3.4 or 3.7 too, for even more power.
The 8C has already been built - I saw it at the Sydney Motor Show! However, whether the 1000 model production run ever happens is another thing...
R
PS - Paddy, where are you getting your Alfa news from? Sounds like you've got the contacts!! |
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LDA
Alfa 33
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 276
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| paddy granger wrote: |
A bit of bad news chaps. - the 8C will probably not be made. It is fully developed and ready for production, but that is where the story will probably end. Will keep you all informed.
As for the Brera, it will be launched at Geneva, and will have awd for the big engines!
Paddy. |
yeh teh 8c was too good to be true 
the brera does sound very good tho! 4wd will defo get me in a new alfa
when (if ever) are we expecting RHD cars to be in the shops?
L.
_________________
A good workman allways blames his sh*t tools. |
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